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Thread: Boiler Question

  1. #92
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    Another question that came up; "Are heat recovery chillers used in any new buildings for space heating?"

    The application seems so rare altogether, that it seems unlikely. As I stated earlier, I had never heard of them until I read about a system that was installed in an older building in my area. I have never seen any in person. Given their obscurity, perhaps they fell out of fashion because a boiler is used as a supplement? Or perhaps they fell out of use for the same general reasons that boilers and hydronic heating have.

    I no others stated otherwise, yet I believe one reason hydronic heat has fallen out of favor is because of the piping. With electric strips, you have no steam or hot water supply/return piping.

    Comments are appreciated.

  2. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Another question that came up; "Are heat recovery chillers used in any new buildings for space heating?"

    The application seems so rare altogether, that it seems unlikely. As I stated earlier, I had never heard of them until I read about a system that was installed in an older building in my area. I have never seen any in person. Given their obscurity, perhaps they fell out of fashion because a boiler is used as a supplement? Or perhaps they fell out of use for the same general reasons that boilers and hydronic heating have.

    I no others stated otherwise, yet I believe one reason hydronic heat has fallen out of favor is because of the piping. With electric strips, you have no steam or hot water supply/return piping.

    Comments are appreciated.
    Dude, you are reading but aren't listening. We have all tried to tell you the same thing. NOW PAY ATTENTION.

    Every area of the country, and the world for that matter, has different heating and cooling needs. For instance, Bangor, Maine has extremely high heating needs and very, very low cooling needs, where Houston, TX has very, very low heating needs and extreme cooling needs. A heating system that works in Houston, will not even make a dent in Bangor. Your fascination with electric strip heat is horribly misguided. I have been doing this for twice as long as you have been alive, and I can count on one hand, the buildings both new and old that used strip heat. This includes a considerable amount of time working in Atlanta.

    Heat recovery chillers are but one tool in an engineer's toolbox of tricks to heat and cool a building. Every type of system has its strengths and weaknesses. This means that there is no "one size fits all" HVAC system that can dominate.

    For instance, take a brand new hospital that we are working on. It will be heated with a system that starts as 60 PSI steam and then is exchanged to 180* water through HX's. The cooling needs are primarily handled by chillers. Air handlers, commercial baseboard, and hydronic radiant panels will deliver the heat to the space. This is a brand new, state of the art hospital and I can guarantee you that there will not be a single electric duct heater in the building. Why? Because in Maine, electric heat is inadequate and expensive.

    Please listen to those that are trying to educate you or we will all stop wasting our time trying to argue with a high school kid.

    My $0.02 worth.

  3. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    Dude, you are reading but aren't listening. We have all tried to tell you the same thing. NOW PAY ATTENTION.

    Every area of the country, and the world for that matter, has different heating and cooling needs. For instance, Bangor, Maine has extremely high heating needs and very, very low cooling needs, where Houston, TX has very, very low heating needs and extreme cooling needs. A heating system that works in Houston, will not even make a dent in Bangor. Your fascination with electric strip heat is horribly misguided. I have been doing this for twice as long as you have been alive, and I can count on one hand, the buildings both new and old that used strip heat. This includes a considerable amount of time working in Atlanta.

    Heat recovery chillers are but one tool in an engineer's toolbox of tricks to heat and cool a building. Every type of system has its strengths and weaknesses. This means that there is no "one size fits all" HVAC system that can dominate.

    For instance, take a brand new hospital that we are working on. It will be heated with a system that starts as 60 PSI steam and then is exchanged to 180* water through HX's. The cooling needs are primarily handled by chillers. Air handlers, commercial baseboard, and hydronic radiant panels will deliver the heat to the space. This is a brand new, state of the art hospital and I can guarantee you that there will not be a single electric duct heater in the building. Why? Because in Maine, electric heat is inadequate and expensive.

    Please listen to those that are trying to educate you or we will all stop wasting our time trying to argue with a high school kid.

    My $0.02 worth.
    Thank you for taking the time to offer an explanation. As I said earlier I am not trying to come across as disrespectful, I am just attempting to research my question thoroughly before jumping to an agreement with what one or two people say.

    Those I’ve spoken to personally give the impression that boilers and hot water/steam heat are old technology installed in only older buildings. Those here, argue otherwise. I am just trying to look at both sides and discuss this intelligently.

    Still, I find it very hard to believe that a brand new hospital would use live steam for heat. That would mean an operator has to be present 24/7. Are you sure this isn’t a renovation of a much older building??I thought the goal in today’s economy was to avoid a large onsite staff?

    And with LEED certified buildings dominating new construction, steam seems the least likely choice for something new and efficient.

    Again, I’m not trying to argue. It just seems I’ve now been told two things……..

  4. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Thank you for taking the time to offer an explanation. As I said earlier I am not trying to come across as disrespectful, I am just attempting to research my question thoroughly before jumping to an agreement with what one or two people say.

    Those I’ve spoken to personally give the impression that boilers and hot water/steam heat are old technology installed in only older buildings. Those here, argue otherwise. I am just trying to look at both sides and discuss this intelligently.

    Still, I find it very hard to believe that a brand new hospital would use live steam for heat. That would mean an operator has to be present 24/7. Are you sure this isn’t a renovation of a much older building??I thought the goal in today’s economy was to avoid a large onsite staff?

    And with LEED certified buildings dominating new construction, steam seems the least likely choice for something new and efficient.

    Again, I’m not trying to argue. It just seems I’ve now been told two things……..
    It is a new hospital. I was there yesterday, all day. The building is striving for LEED Platinum certification.

    Hospitals and many buildings like it are moving toward Co-Generation. Meaning that they are producing their own electricity along with heating in the same plant. Steam is far from lost. Steam can move freely without the use of pumps, when designed and installed properly. Think of it thermodynamically. Steam is latent heat in its purest form.

  5. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    It is a new hospital. I was there yesterday, all day. The building is striving for LEED Platinum certification.

    Hospitals and many buildings like it are moving toward Co-Generation. Meaning that they are producing their own electricity along with heating in the same plant. Steam is far from lost. Steam can move freely without the use of pumps, when designed and installed properly. Think of it thermodynamically. Steam is latent heat in its purest form.
    Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??

  6. #97
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    Young feller. Not only is water heating still going strong but it is getting stronger. Floor heating and fancy European radiators have given it new life. So has state of the art boilers, that don't need to be monitored. Just so you know, there is almost no air heating systems in Europe (500,000,000 people) except for some commercial cooling and heat pump systems. You can move more heat in a 1" pipe than you can in a 1 ft2 duct and at less electrical cost to move it, so don't listen to people who tell you it is on its way out.

    Steam has its place and there are some situations where almost nothing else works....bakeries, for example, commercial laundries as well. Each technology has its place and you have to separate the creation of the heat (gas, oil, electricity) from the distribution of that heat (forced air, water or steam lines).

  7. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??
    Hospitals have to have process steam anyway. So operators are required onsite for those boilers. Their heat is most often pulled off of these boilers.

    It is not hard to gain LEED certification with boilers. There are just stringent emissions standards. Those standards are already in place and the boiler manufacturer's are already building their equipment to suit those requirements. If you don't believe that steam is alive and well, take a trip to Maine and I will show you the beauty of the future of steam and hydronics. Yes, Co Generation requires a boiler to make steam to turn the turbine. The emissions standards that you keep referring to, only apply above certain BTU or HP levels. Live steam is dangerous, but so is natural gas and propane and high voltage electricity. R-410A operates at 400 PSI high side pressure, that is far higher than almost all steam systems with the exception of manufacturing process steam.

  8. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??
    Co-generation needs a flame and heat. some systems don't need steam but most do. There are small household systems that will supply hot water for the house and make some electrical power at the same time. In most western countries, new power plants are co-gen or combined cycle and some supply waste hot water to heat homes and businesses in the area of the plant. Combustion rules and emissions don't differentiate by the type of distribution so boilers are typically the same or less than gas forced air.

  9. #100
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    Up here in my part of the great white north, there is no such thing as strip heat in commercial.
    I love my job, but paydays Thursday

  10. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by rich pickering View Post
    Up here in my part of the great white north, there is no such thing as strip heat in commercial.
    Even, in new buildings??

  11. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??
    Why would you find it hard to believe?, this is the only thing that makes perfect sense? Hospitals have people there 24/7 365 already....

    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Even, in new buildings??
    Especially in new buildings... I'm starting to think your a little thick.

    Strip heat IS the old way.....

    Your killing me.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  12. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gus-Herb94 View Post
    You have said this a couple times but you can't be more specific as to WHERE your referring to? Is this a blanket statement for the whole country or are you referring to your city Dallas? and have you actually seen these electric heat strips your talking about or are you taking somebodies word for it?

    I can think of at least one building built before 1981 that does not have a "full central plant" and that would be the Sears tower (Or Willis tower as you probably only know it as at this point). It has water source heat pumps (I haven't seen this for myself, but have heard this from quite a few techs around this area). That was completed in 1973.
    I thought the sears tower had electric boilers for hot water heat?? This is another example of an older building which utilizes hydronic heat. If it had been built in 1993 rather than 1973, it would have electric heat strips. No hydronics.

    They might also have heat recovery chillers. I read the specifications sometime ago, and don't remember for sure

  13. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    Why would you find it hard to believe?, this is the only thing that makes perfect sense? Hospitals have people there 24/7 365 already....


    What exactly do you mean by that??

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