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Thread: Boiler Question

  1. #53
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
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    263
    No, that's the new one.

    1 Bryant Park, built in 2009 has 7.

    Tapei 101, built 2004 has 17.
    Last edited by timmy2734; 02-24-2013 at 11:01 PM.

  2. #54
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    Apr 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    The OLD 1 wtc had mechanical floors. I doubt the new one will, because they are using DX systems.
    Every multi story building has mechanical floors. Period. It is simple physics. City water pressure can only overcome 5 floors of elevation. So we have to pump it. Same with chilled water, heating hot water, etc....

    We just finished the largest maintenance hangar that the Air Force has built in almost 20 years. This was for their refueling aircraft. The building is LEEDs certified and is hydronic heat to radiant and air handlers.

    Hydronic and Steam heat is far from dead in colder climates. We pay $0.14 per kilowatt hour up here. Natural gas is sparsely available. So we still do a fair amount of #2 and #6 Cleavers. Like some of other municipalities, up here, it would be irresponsible for me to recommend or install electric heat. Also, DX heat pumps only work down to about 7 Btu's/lb enthalpy. We spend way too much of the winter below that mark for them to be a reliable source of heat under design conditions.

  3. #55
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    Nov 2010
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    166
    Quote Originally Posted by meplumber View Post
    Every multi story building has mechanical floors. Period. It is simple physics. City water pressure can only overcome 5 floors of elevation. So we have to pump it. Same with chilled water, heating hot water, etc....

    We just finished the largest maintenance hangar that the Air Force has built in almost 20 years. This was for their refueling aircraft. The building is LEEDs certified and is hydronic heat to radiant and air handlers.

    Hydronic and Steam heat is far from dead in colder climates. We pay $0.14 per kilowatt hour up here. Natural gas is sparsely available. So we still do a fair amount of #2 and #6 Cleavers. Like some of other municipalities, up here, it would be irresponsible for me to recommend or install electric heat. Also, DX heat pumps only work down to about 7 Btu's/lb enthalpy. We spend way too much of the winter below that mark for them to be a reliable source of heat under design conditions.
    Steam and hot water is installed/replaced in older buildings.

    My statement was that I don't believe it to be used for heating newly constructed buildings. We've discussed why boilers are no longer used. Size/space, emissions, inital cost, etc.

    However, we have still not established why newly built buildings do not utilize district steam. I have seen newer buildings in a city with district steam, that choose not to tap into the system for heat. It seems they choose electric instead. The steam loops customer base is usually older, perhaps even on the National Register of Historic Places

  4. #56
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    Nov 2004
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    Skokie , IL near chicago
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    1,141
    one use for a 24 hr. watch is in buildings under construction , un occupied , with the heating system on & circ hot water......if a boiler fails it could be a total disaster with a muilti story freezeup.....my last one was the Newberry building in chicago , a 56 story hi rise , all hydronic heat/cool with Whalen units for every zone & 20+ in. risers.....extra cold winter with temp windows , 12 hr shifts for ot.....life was good............Jack
    B[COLOR=a friend is one who knows us , but loves us anyway

  5. #57
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    If this is route that this thread is continuing to go, nobody will be able to appease you. It seems as though you only want to hear what you want. You still don't believe steam & hot water is used in new buildings... multiple people here have proved otherwise but yet you're still saying your statement is correct?

    Just out of curiosity, what buildings opted not to tap into the district steam?

  6. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy2734 View Post
    If this is route that this thread is continuing to go, nobody will be able to appease you. It seems as though you only want to hear what you want. You still don't believe steam & hot water is used in new buildings... multiple people here have proved otherwise but yet you're still saying your statement is correct?

    Just out of curiosity, what buildings opted not to tap into the district steam?
    No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

    Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

    As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

    With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

    Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

    As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

    With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….
    But you are arguing. I just gave you an example, as have others of new buildings being built with steam and hydronic heat. These buildings are also LEED certified. Meaning that they meet the highest standards of energy efficiency. Electric and DX heating do not work in all climate areas. It is far from a dying art. It is still a viable and useful means of comfort heating. Not reserved for old building retrofits.

  8. #60
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    Feb 2007
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    Helena, Montana
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

    Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

    As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

    With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….
    You are beginning to sound like a troll. My intention is not to insult you or start a flame war with you, but question asked and answered. Many people have told you already hyrdonic and steam is still used today in new construction, yet you continue to infer that you are the only one correct in your belief that it is only used on retrofits. If you truely want to learn, start listening. Your question has been answered several times by different people from all over the country.

    I can see you have the typical Engineer (yes there are some that are not typical) view of "I designed a new building and all of the sytems so there won't be any need for maintenance since it is new". It has been my experience, of course since it's not your experience you will probably disregard it, that new buildings actually require more attention than older buildings for the first year. There are many reasons for this. The engineer's sequence of operation often does not meet all of the needs of the buidling occupants. A new DDC system, even commissioned as best as possible, will always need fine tuned and tailored for the actual building usage. Things are overlooked or missed during construction, despite everyone's best efforts, and resolutions have to be found to these issues. Sensor locations might not be ideal based on usage. There are a myriad of issues with a DDC and mechanical system that take several years to get ironed out.

    Please don't be Feng or Youngwiseman....
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  9. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    You are beginning to sound like a troll. My intention is not to insult you or start a flame war with you, but question asked and answered. Many people have told you already hyrdonic and steam is still used today in new construction, yet you continue to infer that you are the only one correct in your belief that it is only used on retrofits. If you truely want to learn, start listening. Your question has been answered several times by different people from all over the country.

    I can see you have the typical Engineer (yes there are some that are not typical) view of "I designed a new building and all of the sytems so there won't be any need for maintenance since it is new". It has been my experience, of course since it's not your experience you will probably disregard it, that new buildings actually require more attention than older buildings for the first year. There are many reasons for this. The engineer's sequence of operation often does not meet all of the needs of the buidling occupants. A new DDC system, even commissioned as best as possible, will always need fine tuned and tailored for the actual building usage. Things are overlooked or missed during construction, despite everyone's best efforts, and resolutions have to be found to these issues. Sensor locations might not be ideal based on usage. There are a myriad of issues with a DDC and mechanical system that take several years to get ironed out.

    Please don't be Feng or Youngwiseman....
    Again... I would like to express my sincere apologies if anything I said came across as disrespectful. I am aware that everyone on here is much more experienced than I am. I am only repeating the impression I received based on my personal experiences. Perhaps I was given misinformation?

    However, you can’t avoid the fact the all of the new modern looking buildings in our downtown utilize electric strip heat. Even out tallest building, 72 stories built 1983-4 utilizes all electric heat strips. However the second tallest building in our city was built in 1974, it has electric boilers. From this it seems logical to infer that boiler heat was the trend in new buildings years ago. Other examples include my high school which was built in 1963 and my elementary school built in 1954. Both of these buildings are 50+ years old and feature hot water heating. Visit a brand new school, and you will find RTUs; electric or gas. The newer addition at my high school use RTUs, there was never any thought of connecting to the central plant.

    Regarding the engineering staff at a brand new building. I understand the importance of preventative maintaince, yet why have highly trained stationary engineers for a new property with modern efficient equipment. Yes, it has to be adjusted and monitored, but type of skilled labor I’m talking about is simply not needed in a new building.
    Think about it this way an older building is going to have older equipment. Unless of course there have been retrofits. With older equipment you could easily have a boiler operator, electrician, or even master plumber as members of the engineering staff. A LEED certified building isn’t going to need these people on staff daily. Sure, they may call in a master plumber when the need arises. My point was, that a highly skilled engineering staff is essential for operating on older building to reach its full potential in today’s world. Modernization, works to avoid increased manpower. The automation present in modern buildings attempts to cut down the need for active manpower on a daily bases. On the grand opening day of a brand new LEED, office tower, how many service requests would the engineer(s) get?? Things have to be failing before on site help is needed….
    Of course in the old days when Steam boilers were installed, it was necessary to have an engineer on site from day one. I recognize the points made here, yet I believe that my argument would hold up with amy stationary engineer.
    Respecfully,
    JW

  10. #62
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    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
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    34,599
    As I pointed out, here in Indy the district energy system is used for about anything big downtown. Many older buildings that had their own cooling systems don't replace them, instead tie in to the chilled water lines. Most of them are already on the steam lines. The Marriott complex except for one section with PTACs, uses district steam & chilled water. Another new complex with shops, apartments, a hotel, also uses district energy. Lucas Oil Stadium, you've seen it on TV, is across the street from the steam plant and main chiller plant and uses their services.

    The city hospital is being replaced with a HUGE new building. The district energy company is building a central plant for it. 9000 tons of chillers and 3 boilers (27000 pounds per hour, whatever that translates into BTUs).

  11. #63
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    Mar 2010
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    Morgan Hill Ca.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Again... I would like to express my sincere apologies if anything I said came across as disrespectful. I am aware that everyone on here is much more experienced than I am. I am only repeating the impression I received based on my personal experiences. Perhaps I was given misinformation?

    However, you can’t avoid the fact the all of the new modern looking buildings in our downtown utilize electric strip heat. Even out tallest building, 72 stories built 1983-4 utilizes all electric heat strips. However the second tallest building in our city was built in 1974, it has electric boilers. From this it seems logical to infer that boiler heat was the trend in new buildings years ago. Other examples include my high school which was built in 1963 and my elementary school built in 1954. Both of these buildings are 50+ years old and feature hot water heating. Visit a brand new school, and you will find RTUs; electric or gas. The newer addition at my high school use RTUs, there was never any thought of connecting to the central plant.

    Regarding the engineering staff at a brand new building. I understand the importance of preventative maintaince, yet why have highly trained stationary engineers for a new property with modern efficient equipment. Yes, it has to be adjusted and monitored, but type of skilled labor I’m talking about is simply not needed in a new building.
    Think about it this way an older building is going to have older equipment. Unless of course there have been retrofits. With older equipment you could easily have a boiler operator, electrician, or even master plumber as members of the engineering staff. A LEED certified building isn’t going to need these people on staff daily. Sure, they may call in a master plumber when the need arises. My point was, that a highly skilled engineering staff is essential for operating on older building to reach its full potential in today’s world. Modernization, works to avoid increased manpower. The automation present in modern buildings attempts to cut down the need for active manpower on a daily bases. On the grand opening day of a brand new LEED, office tower, how many service requests would the engineer(s) get?? Things have to be failing before on site help is needed….
    Of course in the old days when Steam boilers were installed, it was necessary to have an engineer on site from day one. I recognize the points made here, yet I believe that my argument would hold up with amy stationary engineer.
    Respecfully,
    JW

    I only have this to add... IMHO you have either been grossly misinformed or... The governing bodies in your area are extremely irresponsible/corrupt or.... Electricity is dirt dirt cheap.

    I am going to take answer number one for $200 Bob... That being said, it would not surprise me for even a second if the government has figured out a way to profit from trying to phase out anything that would reduce electrical usage... Big taxes on KWH perhaps?

    All they would have to do is put even larger use taxes/restrictions on gas.

    GT
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  12. #64
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    Helena, Montana
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    I only have this to add... IMHO you have either been grossly misinformed or... The governing bodies in your area are extremely irresponsible/corrupt or.... Electricity is dirt dirt cheap.

    I am going to take answer number one for $200 Bob... That being said, it would not surprise me for even a second if the government has figured out a way to profit from trying to phase out anything that would reduce electrical usage... Big taxes on KWH perhaps?

    All they would have to do is put even larger use taxes/restrictions on gas.

    GT
    Taking it one step further, the building owners (usually) are not concerned with the efficiency either. They pass the cost of the operating the building on to their tenants. Based on that, there is no incentive for them to use the more efficient option since upfront cost is usually a little higher.
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  13. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    Taking it one step further, the building owners (usually) are not concerned with the efficiency either. They pass the cost of the operating the building on to their tenants. Based on that, there is no incentive for them to use the more efficient option since upfront cost is usually a little higher.
    I guess that's true... However, all I have to do is build an energy efficient building and I can offer space at a slightly higher lease with lowered operating cost.

    Then again, not sure the people in this area are too bright...

    That was a joke BTW

    Don't taze me bro...
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

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