Boiler Question

[MHall]

You are beginning to sound like a troll. My intention is not to insult you or start a flame war with you, but question asked and answered. Many people have told you already hyrdonic and steam is still used today in new construction, yet you continue to infer that you are the only one correct in your belief that it is only used on retrofits. If you truely want to learn, start listening. Your question has been answered several times by different people from all over the country.

I can see you have the typical Engineer (yes there are some that are not typical) view of "I designed a new building and all of the sytems so there won't be any need for maintenance since it is new". It has been my experience, of course since it's not your experience you will probably disregard it, that new buildings actually require more attention than older buildings for the first year. There are many reasons for this. The engineer's sequence of operation often does not meet all of the needs of the buidling occupants. A new DDC system, even commissioned as best as possible, will always need fine tuned and tailored for the actual building usage. Things are overlooked or missed during construction, despite everyone's best efforts, and resolutions have to be found to these issues. Sensor locations might not be ideal based on usage. There are a myriad of issues with a DDC and mechanical system that take several years to get ironed out.

Please don't be Feng or Youngwiseman....

Again... I would like to express my sincere apologies if anything I said came across as disrespectful. I am aware that everyone on here is much more experienced than I am. I am only repeating the impression I received based on my personal experiences. Perhaps I was given misinformation?

However, you can’t avoid the fact the all of the new modern looking buildings in our downtown utilize electric strip heat. Even out tallest building, 72 stories built 1983-4 utilizes all electric heat strips. However the second tallest building in our city was built in 1974, it has electric boilers. From this it seems logical to infer that boiler heat was the trend in new buildings years ago. Other examples include my high school which was built in 1963 and my elementary school built in 1954. Both of these buildings are 50+ years old and feature hot water heating. Visit a brand new school, and you will find RTUs; electric or gas. The newer addition at my high school use RTUs, there was never any thought of connecting to the central plant.

Regarding the engineering staff at a brand new building. I understand the importance of preventative maintaince, yet why have highly trained stationary engineers for a new property with modern efficient equipment. Yes, it has to be adjusted and monitored, but type of skilled labor I’m talking about is simply not needed in a new building.
Think about it this way an older building is going to have older equipment. Unless of course there have been retrofits. With older equipment you could easily have a boiler operator, electrician, or even master plumber as members of the engineering staff. A LEED certified building isn’t going to need these people on staff daily. Sure, they may call in a master plumber when the need arises. My point was, that a highly skilled engineering staff is essential for operating on older building to reach its full potential in today’s world. Modernization, works to avoid increased manpower. The automation present in modern buildings attempts to cut down the need for active manpower on a daily bases. On the grand opening day of a brand new LEED, office tower, how many service requests would the engineer(s) get?? Things have to be failing before on site help is needed….
Of course in the old days when Steam boilers were installed, it was necessary to have an engineer on site from day one. I recognize the points made here, yet I believe that my argument would hold up with amy stationary engineer.
Respecfully,
JW

[BaldLoonie]

As I pointed out, here in Indy the district energy system is used for about anything big downtown. Many older buildings that had their own cooling systems don't replace them, instead tie in to the chilled water lines. Most of them are already on the steam lines. The Marriott complex except for one section with PTACs, uses district steam & chilled water. Another new complex with shops, apartments, a hotel, also uses district energy. Lucas Oil Stadium, you've seen it on TV, is across the street from the steam plant and main chiller plant and uses their services.

The city hospital is being replaced with a HUGE new building. The district energy company is building a central plant for it. 9000 tons of chillers and 3 boilers (27000 pounds per hour, whatever that translates into BTUs).

[GT Jets]

Again... I would like to express my sincere apologies if anything I said came across as disrespectful. I am aware that everyone on here is much more experienced than I am. I am only repeating the impression I received based on my personal experiences. Perhaps I was given misinformation?

However, you can’t avoid the fact the all of the new modern looking buildings in our downtown utilize electric strip heat. Even out tallest building, 72 stories built 1983-4 utilizes all electric heat strips. However the second tallest building in our city was built in 1974, it has electric boilers. From this it seems logical to infer that boiler heat was the trend in new buildings years ago. Other examples include my high school which was built in 1963 and my elementary school built in 1954. Both of these buildings are 50+ years old and feature hot water heating. Visit a brand new school, and you will find RTUs; electric or gas. The newer addition at my high school use RTUs, there was never any thought of connecting to the central plant.

Regarding the engineering staff at a brand new building. I understand the importance of preventative maintaince, yet why have highly trained stationary engineers for a new property with modern efficient equipment. Yes, it has to be adjusted and monitored, but type of skilled labor I’m talking about is simply not needed in a new building.
Think about it this way an older building is going to have older equipment. Unless of course there have been retrofits. With older equipment you could easily have a boiler operator, electrician, or even master plumber as members of the engineering staff. A LEED certified building isn’t going to need these people on staff daily. Sure, they may call in a master plumber when the need arises. My point was, that a highly skilled engineering staff is essential for operating on older building to reach its full potential in today’s world. Modernization, works to avoid increased manpower. The automation present in modern buildings attempts to cut down the need for active manpower on a daily bases. On the grand opening day of a brand new LEED, office tower, how many service requests would the engineer(s) get?? Things have to be failing before on site help is needed….
Of course in the old days when Steam boilers were installed, it was necessary to have an engineer on site from day one. I recognize the points made here, yet I believe that my argument would hold up with amy stationary engineer.
Respecfully,
JW

I only have this to add... IMHO you have either been grossly misinformed or... The governing bodies in your area are extremely irresponsible/corrupt or.... Electricity is dirt dirt cheap.

I am going to take answer number one for $200 Bob... That being said, it would not surprise me for even a second if the government has figured out a way to profit from trying to phase out anything that would reduce electrical usage... Big taxes on KWH perhaps?

All they would have to do is put even larger use taxes/restrictions on gas.

GT

[ControlsInMT]

I only have this to add... IMHO you have either been grossly misinformed or... The governing bodies in your area are extremely irresponsible/corrupt or.... Electricity is dirt dirt cheap.

I am going to take answer number one for $200 Bob... That being said, it would not surprise me for even a second if the government has figured out a way to profit from trying to phase out anything that would reduce electrical usage... Big taxes on KWH perhaps?

All they would have to do is put even larger use taxes/restrictions on gas.

GT

Taking it one step further, the building owners (usually) are not concerned with the efficiency either. They pass the cost of the operating the building on to their tenants. Based on that, there is no incentive for them to use the more efficient option since upfront cost is usually a little higher.

[GT Jets]

Taking it one step further, the building owners (usually) are not concerned with the efficiency either. They pass the cost of the operating the building on to their tenants. Based on that, there is no incentive for them to use the more efficient option since upfront cost is usually a little higher.

I guess that's true... However, all I have to do is build an energy efficient building and I can offer space at a slightly higher lease with lowered operating cost.

Then again, not sure the people in this area are too bright...

That was a joke BTW

Don't taze me bro...

[timmy2734]

So you're saying that Stationary Engineers & staff are being phased out due to modernization & automation of equipment. Ok we'll go with that.
Why on earth are you dead set on entering a field that you know you're being phased out in? I can't say I see the logic in that.

How many buildings have you been involved in the commissioning of? How many ceilings have you poked your head into only to see duct work missing, access panels that you can't open, thermostats in the wrong spots or missing, things wired wrong, units not even being close to being calibrated because a sub was thrown off the job, do you want me to continue?

It's easy for you to sit at your computer and assume that a brand new, state of the art building will be nothing short of perfection. But until you deal with it first hand, you have no clue. I have no issue working in an old building. If the staff there is good, most of those issues have already been dealt with.

[MHall]

So you're saying that Stationary Engineers & staff are being phased out due to modernization & automation of equipment. Ok we'll go with that.
Why on earth are you dead set on entering a field that you know you're being phased out in? I can't say I see the logic in that.

How many buildings have you been involved in the commissioning of? How many ceilings have you poked your head into only to see duct work missing, access panels that you can't open, thermostats in the wrong spots or missing, things wired wrong, units not even being close to being calibrated because a sub was thrown off the job, do you want me to continue?

It's easy for you to sit at your computer and assume that a brand new, state of the art building will be nothing short of perfection. But until you deal with it first hand, you have no clue. I have no issue working in an old building. If the staff there is good, most of those issues have already been dealt with.

My point was that, those interested in the field should be aware that newer buildings (ie: LEED) aren’t going to need substantial on site help. Sure, they might need a day porter who can change bulbs/ballasts, but highly skilled tradesman (such as boiler operators, master plumbers, electricians, etc) is only seen on site at older properties.

I take a great interest in this field, and do not believe it is fading out. With so many older buildings being revitalized to reflect their full architectural significance, the need for stationary engineers to service these buildings can only grow.

[timmy2734]

but highly skilled tradesman (such as boiler operators, master plumbers, electricians, etc) is only seen on site at older properties.

I'll disagree... Here in NYC new buildings are as well staffed as the old. You still need licensed personal on site.

As buildings get more complex, you can't cut staff down to a skeleton crew without suffering the consequences. When you have tenants that pay a premium price to rent space, they have the right to have the building jump to cater to their needs. That may just be my opinion though...

[MHall]

As I stated earlier, I have a few questions regarding heat recovery chillers.

Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.

Thank you.

[GT Jets]

As I stated earlier, I have a few questions regarding heat recovery chillers.

Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.

Thank you.

Now we're getting somewhere..

The answer to your question depends on a crap ton of variables. So lets just break down the basic question.

Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

The short answer is yes. The heat generated (or in this case relocated) in the condenser is used to counteract the cold, the variables come in when you don't have enough cooling load to pull heat from.


Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.


I would not call the recovered heat "HOT" but warm... Not used as a back up, but used in lieu of heat strips... You keep forgetting, heat strips rob you blind. Virtually EVERYTHING we can do to improve energy efficiency and building comfort, while at the same time using something we would otherwise throw away (IE not running cooling towers but rather using that heat to supplement the heating operations of the building) you are hitting a grand slam.

The problem with your statement is where you say heat strips, it would virtually impossible to use reclaimed heat without a hot water loop, if you have strip heat, why would you have a hydronic heating loop?...


Your kinda going sideways again/still.

[MHall]

QUOTE GT JETS:The problem with your statement is where you say heat strips, it would virtually impossible to use reclaimed heat without a hot water loop, if you have strip heat, why would you have a hydronic heating loop?...


Your kinda going sideways again/still. [/QUOTE]

I appreciate your response and information. I was under the impression that heat recovery chillers were used when most viable. I.e.; days when cooling is needed, yet heating is also needed at the perimeter areas.

Are they ever used as the primary source of heat??? Could they provide the needed heat, during the temperature months?

I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings. Once again if we are talking about an older building than I can see how it would be possible to have a complete central plant with heat recovery chillers and boilers. Think of the cost of all that piping though....!?

[GT Jets]

I appreciate your response and information. I was under the impression that heat recovery chillers were used when most viable. I.e.; days when cooling is needed, yet heating is also needed at the perimeter areas.

This is 100% correct.

Are they ever used as the primary source of heat??? Could they provide the needed heat, during the temperature months?

They really wont be the "primary" source of heat in most cases. This is where the boiler would come in.

I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings. Once again if we are talking about an older building than I can see how it would be possible to have a complete central plant with heat recovery chillers and boilers. Think of the cost of all that piping though....!?

This is 100% incorrect...

I actually took some time to go through our maintenance database this morning. You know what I learned? Not one of the buildings we service (hundreds if not thousands) had electric strip heat as the primary heat source. BTW, we cover a lot of ground.

[GT Jets]

I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings.

Your not going to let that go are you?

Can you show me an actual building that uses nothing but strip heat as the only heat source? Just hit me with an address.... I am dying to prove you wrong.

I can tell you from personal experience that there is not a building within 400 miles of me that has ONLY electric heat.

[MHall]

Your not going to let that go are you?

Can you show me an actual building that uses nothing but strip heat as the only heat source? Just hit me with an address.... I am dying to prove you wrong.

I can tell you from personal experience that there is not a building within 400 miles of me that has ONLY electric heat.

I can give you several examples;

Bank of America Plaza. Dallas tallest building. I haved toured it personally: http://www.baplaza.com/Bank%20of%20A...books%20v1.pdf

Comerica Bank Tower Dallas. I have also toured here and the chief engineer stated that they have electric baseboard heat. No boilers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comerica_Bank_Tower

527 Madison Avenue NY,http://527madisonave.com/
I have not toured here personally, but the building specifications speak for themselves. This building is in NY, no Con Edison steam because it is newer.

This should give you enough of an idea to understand my point. I could find other examples that make my point just as well.


All these buildings were built in the mid-late 1980s, which was the date I gave for the transition from hydronic to electric heat strips. Buildings older than these, (and I could find examples) use boiler heat. Age appears to be the determining factor in equipment installed in a building.

[timmy2734]

1 world trade completion date 2013, 16" high pressure steam lines
http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ct.html/page:1

Canon Headquarters completion date 2013, nice shiny new boilers installed in a brand new building
http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...rs.html/page:1

Goldman Sachs Building, 2008, heated with steam
http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...hs.html/page:2

300 madison , heated with steam...

I'm bored so I really have nothing better to do right now as I can't sleep....

[GT Jets]

I can give you several examples;

Bank of America Plaza. Dallas tallest building. I haved toured it personally: http://www.baplaza.com/Bank%20of%20A...books%20v1.pdf

Comerica Bank Tower Dallas. I have also toured here and the chief engineer stated that they have electric baseboard heat. No boilers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comerica_Bank_Tower

527 Madison Avenue NY,http://527madisonave.com/
I have not toured here personally, but the building specifications speak for themselves. This building is in NY, no Con Edison steam because it is newer.

This should give you enough of an idea to understand my point. I could find other examples that make my point just as well.


All these buildings were built in the mid-late 1980s, which was the date I gave for the transition from hydronic to electric heat strips. Buildings older than these, (and I could find examples) use boiler heat. Age appears to be the determining factor in equipment installed in a building.

Hold the phone.. You said "new construction" boss... Check again, 527 Madison is NOT a new building. Since when in 1986 new? it's almost twice as old as you are....

Almost 30 years old is NOT newer., Check into buildings built in the mid 90's on...Using your own criteria, ALL buildings built since then used virtually NO strip heat as their primary heat source.

I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings.

At what point do you call a building "old".

Electricity in the 70's and 80's was almost free.... You still need to go do some homework...

If you look into this further, you will find that buildings built between about 1970 all the way up until just short of the 1990's, electric everything was used due to the low cost of electricity, once the demands were exceeding supply, the utilities had us right where they wanted us and power generation got crazy expensive, add to that the expense of having to build more plants and the cost of up-sizing transmission lines...

I can assure you, things have changed dramatically since the mid 1980's.

[GT Jets]

I'm bored so I really have nothing better to do right now as I can't sleep....

[Gus-Herb94]

You know, I don't think it's been mentioned plain and clear but did you ever think that the reason they use electric strip heat in these buildings is because your in a warm climate where heating in high rises is barely needed? These places practically heat themselves to about 50-40 degrees. In Dallas that's about the average winter high.

I could EASILY see the engineers that put these systems together saying that very same thing, and just throwing strip heating in because it's cheapest and will hardly be used anyway.

Up north hydronics and steam is definitely predominant and looks to stay that way for some time.

Nothing is the way it seems. Things do go in and out of fashion. Right now I'd say hydronics and chilled water etc have made a bit of a comeback.

And don't forget alot of decisions are made based strictly on money, cost effectiveness etc. There really is no set date for when anything went in/out of fashion lost/gained popularity etc. Everything is different city to city, building by building.

You seem like you could use some more hands on experience, outside of your home evironment. Things really are a bit different then how your original statements make it sound.

[GT Jets]

You know, I don't think it's been mentioned plain and clear but did you ever think that the reason they use electric strip heat in these buildings is because your in a warm climate where heating in high rises is barely needed? These places practically heat themselves to about 50-40 degrees. In Dallas that's about the average winter high.

I could EASILY see the engineers that put these systems together saying that very same thing, and just throwing strip heating in because it's cheapest and will hardly be used anyway.

Up north hydronics and steam is definitely predominant and looks to stay that way for some time.

Nothing is the way it seems. Things do go in and out of fashion. Right now I'd say hydronics and chilled water etc have made a bit of a comeback.

And don't forget alot of decisions are made based strictly on money, cost effectiveness etc. There really is no set date for when anything went in/out of fashion lost/gained popularity etc. Everything is different city to city, building by building.

You seem like you could use some more hands on experience, outside of your home evironment. Things really are a bit different then how your original statements make it sound.

Very eloquent.

Your are correct, however....

He uses the terms "all newer building have strip heat", this is bunk....

He uses the terms "boilers are being phased out due to install costs" again, bunk.

And I totally agree with you, he needs to tour about a half a dozen LEED platinum buildings and get a feel for the direction that the building industry is heading.

That is my argument in it's entirety. BTW, did you see the electrical statistics on the Dallas bank building? Holy crap Batman! In California you could run three city blocks off that badboy...

GT

[MHall]

Hold the phone.. You said "new construction" boss... Check again, 527 Madison is NOT a new building. Since when in 1986 new? it's almost twice as old as you are....

Almost 30 years old is NOT newer., Check into buildings built in the mid 90's on...Using your own criteria, ALL buildings built since then used virtually NO strip heat as their primary heat source.


At what point do you call a building "old".


I can assure you, things have changed dramatically since the mid 1980's.

As I stated earlier anything built 1981 or prior usually has a full central plant system including steam or HW heat provided by boilers, district steam, and heat recovery chillers. Anything built after about 1982/3----to the present seems to utilize electric heat, hence the examples I listed. I could show you brand new properties and you would see DX units and electric heat.