Boiler Question

[timmy2734]

Speaking of emmisons that may be one reason for the movement away from boilers....? Perhaps the logic of the developers of a new building, is that electric heat is more environmentaly friendly because there is no flue?

That electric is coming from somewhere. It'd be my assumption that it's coming from some type of fossil fuel burning plant. Unless you have hydro or solar or whatever else.

[MHall]

The information that they Engineers had told you may be how things are trending in your neck of the woods.

DDC is almost always installed in new construction. The building I work in now was built 2003. It's all pneumatics... but yes pneumatics are no longer what they used to be. McQuay has the contract for 1 world trade, all smaller dx units. No more chillers like the originals. But there's going to be a 10,000 ton or so plant for the museum and memorial. So yeah, nothing is dead...

If you ask some engineers that work in Hospitals or Colleges in your area, you're probably going to get a completely different answer than what the guys in the office buildings had told you.

Do you work has a building enginner?? I cannot believe any building built as new as 2003 would utilizes pnuematic. Perhaps it is a hybrid DDC-pnuematic system, with electronic thermostats and pnuematic actuators??

As I said before, I've also heard arguments for and against pnuematics and DDC

[valdelocc]

In commercial applications pneumatics are history,they were tried and convicted in late 1970's-early 1980's, pneumatic controls were fine, very simple to figure out but there are lots energy saving things DDC controls can do and pneumatics cant.
a BTU out of electric heaters cost more than any other source, as a rule electric heat is the last card on the table unless you own the power plant or live in a subsidized area.

[timmy2734]

Do you work has a building enginner?? I cannot believe any building built as new as 2003 would utilizes pnuematic. Perhaps it is a hybrid DDC-pnuematic system, with electronic thermostats and pnuematic actuators??

As I said before, I've also heard arguments for and against pnuematics and DDC

No, no hyrbrid.

It's a pneumatically controlled building with chillers turned on manually by toggle switches.

[MHall]

As an aspiring building engineer, I find it surprising to see a newer building with an onsite staff. The newest buildings are all computers automated, thus eliminating the need for a large staff of bldg engineers to tweak pneumatic thermostats and calibrate heater boxes. Unfortunately it seems many building owners prefer outsourcing rather than an onsite staff with a brand new building. With older buildings, a staff is needed because of things like boilers, pneumatics, etc

[GT Jets]

Don't take this the wrong way..

Here is the problem with this statement..

As an aspiring building engineer, I find it surprising to see a newer building with an onsite staff.

I don't see why this would be surprising. And furthermore, why are you aspiring to become a building engineer if you don't understand the need? Seems silly...

The newest buildings are all computers automated, thus eliminating the need for a large staff of bldg engineers to tweak pneumatic thermostats and calibrate heater boxes. Unfortunately it seems many building owners prefer outsourcing rather than an onsite staff with a brand new building. With older buildings, a staff is needed because of things like boilers, pneumatics, etc

Building engineers do much more than tweak set points....

Think about all of the systems in a highrise building.

Basic plumbing; Toilets, touch less sink fixtures, domestic water pressure pumps, fire protection systems, irrigation systems. Non of these systems can be automated to the point of stand alone.

Comfort mechanical systems; boilers, chillers, air distribution, IAQ, exhaust systems, network room air conditioning. Who maintains them C3PO?

Janitorial; Window washers, carpets, paint, basic cleaning, trash removal. Automate that and you will be the worlds next billionaire...

Other mechanical; Elevators, automated doors, emergency generators, parking garage equipment. All things things seem to be engineered to be unreliable.

Safety and compliance; Fire equipment inspections, ADA compliance, handicap parking compliance. There are times that on site personnel need to be present just for insurance purposes.


All this before we even start talking about LEED Certified buildings.

I think you need to go do some homework.

[BaldLoonie]

A friend of mine worked for a while as an engineer at the Hennepin Co. crime lab and morgue in Mpls. CSI! They had 5 penthouse mounted air handlers. An air cooled chiller on the roof, city chilled water and steam. The steam was used to heat water to pump through the air handlers. The day I was there visiting him it as 50 something outside. He was cooling the place on outside air except for the morgue. The chiller cycled to keep it cool. All controlled by a PC. If someone wanted temp changed, he did it on the PC. Someone was always on duty at least during the day.

Our suburb has built a lot of schools lately. Every one has boiler stacks sticking out. Usually air cooled chiller.

[MHall]

Don't take this the wrong way..

Here is the problem with this statement..

I don't see why this would be surprising. And furthermore, why are you aspiring to become a building engineer if you don't understand the need? Seems silly...



Building engineers do much more than tweak set points....

Think about all of the systems in a highrise building.

Basic plumbing; Toilets, touch less sink fixtures, domestic water pressure pumps, fire protection systems, irrigation systems. Non of these systems can be automated to the point of stand alone.

Comfort mechanical systems; boilers, chillers, air distribution, IAQ, exhaust systems, network room air conditioning. Who maintains them C3PO?

Janitorial; Window washers, carpets, paint, basic cleaning, trash removal. Automate that and you will be the worlds next billionaire...

Other mechanical; Elevators, automated doors, emergency generators, parking garage equipment. All things things seem to be engineered to be unreliable.

Safety and compliance; Fire equipment inspections, ADA compliance, handicap parking compliance. There are times that on site personnel need to be present just for insurance purposes.


All this before we even start talking about LEED Certified buildings.

I think you need to go do some homework.

GT;
I appreciate your interest. Your experience in the field shows.

I have had the privilege of touring several class a office towers. I believe that I also mentioned that I was previously an apprentice with the onsite staff at a office tower.
After spending nearly a month with the crew I understand the variety of calls a building engineer might experience during a typical workday. You are right, it is necessary to be a jack of all trades in nearly all areas. This is especially true for HVAC since over 50% of the daily requests are hot/cold calls. During my time at the property I also discovered the importance of preventative maintenance. Things like checking the garage and common area lights, cooling tower water levels, and chiller readings are essential for a well functioning building.

My point was that all of the buildings I have visited are over 20 years old. The oldest was a Chicago building built in 1904. My understanding for the reason such a large staff is needed is because the equipment is reaching the end of it life cycle. However, a brand new building has new equipment which does not need to be repaired, replaced or calibrated. Most preventative maintaince is done by the building management system. Anything else is contracted out.

I applaud your knowledge of this field, yet why would a newly opened building(with advanced technology) need a staff of skilled engineers when there are no tenant complaints??? Another factor is that the eqipment is far more sophistacted and self-operating than before. Out of all the buildings I visted only 1 had an engineer present 24/7.

[timmy2734]

Just because a building is old doesn't mean it has the original equipment. You'll see brand new chillers, controls and everything else in older buildings.

If you go in with the idea that new equipment doesn't need to be repaired, replaced or calibrated, you're going to be in for a world of hurtin.

[MHall]

Just because a building is old doesn't mean it has the original equipment. You'll see brand new chillers, controls and everything else in older buildings.

If you go in with the idea that new equipment doesn't need to be repaired, replaced or calibrated, you're going to be in for a world of hurtin.

True. Although I went to one office building that had the original 2 chillers from 1972, still in operation. Last time I checked, the school my dad works at had 3 original pacific steam boilers original to the schools construction in 1957. I'm sure it all has to do with how well the equipment is maintained over the years.

The point I was trying to make is that these newer buildings don't have type of complicated equipment seen in buildings of the past. There may be exceptions, but a newly constructed building isn't going to have thermostats to calibrate, radiators to adjust or boilers to clean. Everything is done by computers now. With compact equipment that doesn’t require large mechanical rooms. (On a side note; If you go back far enough some buildings had one or more mechanical floors. That is something that would never be done today.)

Another member of this forum stated that a newly built building isn't going to take up leasable space for a boiler. Hence the heat strips and heat pumps. It seems new buildings are solely unitary equipment. Since water cooled chillers need space for a plant and a cooling tower, DX units are now installed instead.

[timmy2734]

You're could'nt be more wrong... 1 trade center has how about 9 floors dedicated to mechanicals. You still need space dedicated towards utilities. Electrical distribution, life safety systems, generators, house pumps etc. How much space do you think is dedicated to a small dx unit per floor? And now if you multiply that by 30, 40 or maybe 50 floors, or in some case more? Giving up space towards mechanicals is unavoidable.

An old boiler could be retrofitted. I've seen plenty of old kewanees with brand new duel fuel burners installed. If you think the equipment of the past is more complicated than the equipment of today, well, then you're a hell of a lot smarter than me. Have you every walked in a 4 seasons rooftop? The amount of stuff in there is crazy. The Sequence of Operation for that compared to my little pneumatic system? You really have no clue....

[MHall]

The OLD 1 wtc had mechanical floors. I doubt the new one will, because they are using DX systems.

[timmy2734]

No, that's the new one.

1 Bryant Park, built in 2009 has 7.

Tapei 101, built 2004 has 17.

[meplumber]

The OLD 1 wtc had mechanical floors. I doubt the new one will, because they are using DX systems.

Every multi story building has mechanical floors. Period. It is simple physics. City water pressure can only overcome 5 floors of elevation. So we have to pump it. Same with chilled water, heating hot water, etc....

We just finished the largest maintenance hangar that the Air Force has built in almost 20 years. This was for their refueling aircraft. The building is LEEDs certified and is hydronic heat to radiant and air handlers.

Hydronic and Steam heat is far from dead in colder climates. We pay $0.14 per kilowatt hour up here. Natural gas is sparsely available. So we still do a fair amount of #2 and #6 Cleavers. Like some of other municipalities, up here, it would be irresponsible for me to recommend or install electric heat. Also, DX heat pumps only work down to about 7 Btu's/lb enthalpy. We spend way too much of the winter below that mark for them to be a reliable source of heat under design conditions.

[MHall]

Every multi story building has mechanical floors. Period. It is simple physics. City water pressure can only overcome 5 floors of elevation. So we have to pump it. Same with chilled water, heating hot water, etc....

We just finished the largest maintenance hangar that the Air Force has built in almost 20 years. This was for their refueling aircraft. The building is LEEDs certified and is hydronic heat to radiant and air handlers.

Hydronic and Steam heat is far from dead in colder climates. We pay $0.14 per kilowatt hour up here. Natural gas is sparsely available. So we still do a fair amount of #2 and #6 Cleavers. Like some of other municipalities, up here, it would be irresponsible for me to recommend or install electric heat. Also, DX heat pumps only work down to about 7 Btu's/lb enthalpy. We spend way too much of the winter below that mark for them to be a reliable source of heat under design conditions.

Steam and hot water is installed/replaced in older buildings.

My statement was that I don't believe it to be used for heating newly constructed buildings. We've discussed why boilers are no longer used. Size/space, emissions, inital cost, etc.

However, we have still not established why newly built buildings do not utilize district steam. I have seen newer buildings in a city with district steam, that choose not to tap into the system for heat. It seems they choose electric instead. The steam loops customer base is usually older, perhaps even on the National Register of Historic Places

[rojacman]

one use for a 24 hr. watch is in buildings under construction , un occupied , with the heating system on & circ hot water......if a boiler fails it could be a total disaster with a muilti story freezeup.....my last one was the Newberry building in chicago , a 56 story hi rise , all hydronic heat/cool with Whalen units for every zone & 20+ in. risers.....extra cold winter with temp windows , 12 hr shifts for ot.....life was good............Jack

[timmy2734]

If this is route that this thread is continuing to go, nobody will be able to appease you. It seems as though you only want to hear what you want. You still don't believe steam & hot water is used in new buildings... multiple people here have proved otherwise but yet you're still saying your statement is correct?

Just out of curiosity, what buildings opted not to tap into the district steam?

[MHall]

If this is route that this thread is continuing to go, nobody will be able to appease you. It seems as though you only want to hear what you want. You still don't believe steam & hot water is used in new buildings... multiple people here have proved otherwise but yet you're still saying your statement is correct?

Just out of curiosity, what buildings opted not to tap into the district steam?

No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….

[meplumber]

No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….

But you are arguing. I just gave you an example, as have others of new buildings being built with steam and hydronic heat. These buildings are also LEED certified. Meaning that they meet the highest standards of energy efficiency. Electric and DX heating do not work in all climate areas. It is far from a dying art. It is still a viable and useful means of comfort heating. Not reserved for old building retrofits.

[ControlsInMT]

No offense intended at all. As someone who has done a great deal of research on the subject, I am simply curious why those in the field, I have spoken to indicate that hydronic heat is a lost art for newly constructed buildings. I am not negating anything that has been stated here. I am just trying to research my question completely.

Regarding which buildings did not tap into district steam.....I could list some of them, but I don't know where to begin.....For the lists I have seen, its older buildings that use it for heat. Some places may use it for sterilization (i.e.; dry cleaning), but I am asking about space heating.

As I said earlier, no offense intended. I'm just looking into it for curiosity’s sake. Don't think I am judging your personal knowledge or experience in the field, as I am aware that there are MANY very qualified individuals who take the time to share what they know.

With that said, I’ve been thinking about those heat recovery chillers I mentioned yesterday. It’s any interesting concept. I might ask some questions about those tomorrow….

You are beginning to sound like a troll. My intention is not to insult you or start a flame war with you, but question asked and answered. Many people have told you already hyrdonic and steam is still used today in new construction, yet you continue to infer that you are the only one correct in your belief that it is only used on retrofits. If you truely want to learn, start listening. Your question has been answered several times by different people from all over the country.

I can see you have the typical Engineer (yes there are some that are not typical) view of "I designed a new building and all of the sytems so there won't be any need for maintenance since it is new". It has been my experience, of course since it's not your experience you will probably disregard it, that new buildings actually require more attention than older buildings for the first year. There are many reasons for this. The engineer's sequence of operation often does not meet all of the needs of the buidling occupants. A new DDC system, even commissioned as best as possible, will always need fine tuned and tailored for the actual building usage. Things are overlooked or missed during construction, despite everyone's best efforts, and resolutions have to be found to these issues. Sensor locations might not be ideal based on usage. There are a myriad of issues with a DDC and mechanical system that take several years to get ironed out.

Please don't be Feng or Youngwiseman....