Boiler Question

[MHall]

Up here in my part of the great white north, there is no such thing as strip heat in commercial.

Even, in new buildings??

[GT Jets]

Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??

Why would you find it hard to believe?, this is the only thing that makes perfect sense? Hospitals have people there 24/7 365 already....

Even, in new buildings??

Especially in new buildings... I'm starting to think your a little thick.

Strip heat IS the old way.....

Your killing me.

[MHall]

You have said this a couple times but you can't be more specific as to WHERE your referring to? Is this a blanket statement for the whole country or are you referring to your city Dallas? and have you actually seen these electric heat strips your talking about or are you taking somebodies word for it?

I can think of at least one building built before 1981 that does not have a "full central plant" and that would be the Sears tower (Or Willis tower as you probably only know it as at this point). It has water source heat pumps (I haven't seen this for myself, but have heard this from quite a few techs around this area). That was completed in 1973.

I thought the sears tower had electric boilers for hot water heat?? This is another example of an older building which utilizes hydronic heat. If it had been built in 1993 rather than 1973, it would have electric heat strips. No hydronics.

They might also have heat recovery chillers. I read the specifications sometime ago, and don't remember for sure

[MHall]

Why would you find it hard to believe?, this is the only thing that makes perfect sense? Hospitals have people there 24/7 365 already....

What exactly do you mean by that??

[GT Jets]

Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??

I thought the sears tower had electric boilers for hot water heat?? This is another example of an older building which utilizes hydronic heat. If it had been built in 1993 rather than 1973, it would have electric heat strips. No hydronics.

They might also have heat recovery chillers. I read the specifications sometime ago, and don't remember for sure

Sears Tower (now Willis Tower) uses Co Gen for heat because of energy consumption concerns...... The generation of electricity heats the building.

[GT Jets]

Interesting information. Would co-generation, require a boiler? Based on what others have said I always thought that emissions would be a great part of why new buildings don't want a boiler on the property. Isn't live steam dangerous as well?? I find it hard to believe that a new LEED hospital will use steam for space heating. Wouldn't that require a boiler operator on site 24/7??

What exactly do you mean by that??

You need to tour a hospital...

Hospitals operate 24 hours a day... There has to be an engineer on site when it is open for business, which is, 24 hours a day.

Steam is the obvious choice because they have to heat their domestic water supply to over 140*F to kill off any potential bacteria and whatnot then temper it down to useable temperatures. Hospitals also do a lot of laundry and the use of autoclaves use a lot of steam.

It make perfect sense....

What do you mean by "exactly"?

[MHall]

You need to tour a hospital...

Hospitals operate 24 hours a day... There has to be an engineer on site when it is open for business, which is, 24 hours a day.


Steam is the obvious choice because they have to heat their domestic water supply to over 140*F to kill off any potential bacteria and whatnot then temper it down to useable temperatures. Hospitals also do a lot of laundry and the use of autoclaves use a lot of steam.


It make perfect sense....

What do you mean by "exactly"?

You would not see a new hospital heated by steam. Think of the lawsuit of a patient burned themselves on a radiator/unit ventilator .Plenty of older hospitals using it though.
And by older, I mean pre 1982.

[timmy2734]

http://www.broaddusassociates.com/in...nter&Itemid=51

There's a nice new fairly new hospital built in your neck of the woods. Maybe you should call up the architects and engineers and tell them they made a mistake. They installed (3) 400 HP Boilers.

[MHall]

http://www.broaddusassociates.com/in...nter&Itemid=51

There's a nice new fairly new hospital built in your neck of the woods. Maybe you should call up the architects and engineers and tell them they made a mistake. They installed (3) 400 HP Boilers.

Interesting. When I stated that; "no new buildings use boilers", I was refering to space heating. Perhaps, they are doing that here?? More than likely its for laundry, sterlization, or domestic water.

[timmy2734]

So you're an engineer designing a building....you have an abundance of steam in your hand...but you'll install electric strip heating ?

[GT Jets]

You would not see a new hospital heated by steam. Think of the lawsuit of a patient burned themselves on a radiator/unit ventilator .Plenty of older hospitals using it though.
And by older, I mean pre 1982.

There are quite literally dozens of ways to heat with steam. Only one of which are radiators.

More homework.......

You can use heat exchangers to heat water, turn turbines and heat with the condensate, heat water with flue scavengers.

All of these practices are used TODAY

[rich pickering]

Even, in new buildings??

Our design temp is -23f. We see -40f. That's actual temperature, not windchill. Natural gas is 60-70% cheaper than electricity.

[GT Jets]

Our design temp is -23f. We see -40f. That's actual temperature, not windchill. Natural gas is 60-70% cheaper than electricity.

You my friend need to friggen move... At what temperature does Vodka freeze?... Holy crap.



All of your tee shirts must have nipple holes torn into them.

[GT Jets]

You my friend need to friggen move... At what temperature does Vodka freeze?... Holy crap.



All of your tee shirts must have nipple holes torn into them.

OK, just looked it up....100 proof Vodka freezes at -40*F...

[MHall]

My previous question has not been answered.

Are heat recovery chillers ever installed in newly constructed buildings?? As I stated before they seem pretty rare in general.

[GT Jets]

My previous question has not been answered.

Are heat recovery chillers ever installed in newly constructed buildings?? As I stated before they seem pretty rare in general.

Not that it matters much, you don't seem to listen to the answers anyway....

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q...4R58GZg0FEWMaw

They will eventually gain popularity as systems get more elaborate.

[Gus-Herb94]

Thank you for taking the time to offer an explanation. As I said earlier I am not trying to come across as disrespectful, I am just attempting to research my question thoroughly before jumping to an agreement with what one or two people say.

Those I’ve spoken to personally give the impression that boilers and hot water/steam heat are old technology installed in only older buildings. Those here, argue otherwise. I am just trying to look at both sides and discuss this intelligently.

Still, I find it very hard to believe that a brand new hospital would use live steam for heat. That would mean an operator has to be present 24/7. Are you sure this isn’t a renovation of a much older building??I thought the goal in today’s economy was to avoid a large onsite staff?

And with LEED certified buildings dominating new construction, steam seems the least likely choice for something new and efficient.

Again, I’m not trying to argue. It just seems I’ve now been told two things……..

You sure must really trust the people that have convinced you that hydronic heating is of the past! They probably were messing with you, or high. Or both.

If you had actually done some research on your own I think by now you'd stop insisting that electric strip heat is the way of the future!

Oh and BTW, steam heat is a very efficient form of heat (when tuned properly). It can run circles around forced air (referring to gas furnaces there, not to be confused with hydro air), less then stellar hot water systems and for surely electric strip heat

I thought the sears tower had electric boilers for hot water heat?? This is another example of an older building which utilizes hydronic heat. If it had been built in 1993 rather than 1973, it would have electric heat strips. No hydronics.

They might also have heat recovery chillers. I read the specifications sometime ago, and don't remember for sure

There is absolutely no possible way in a million years that strip heat would have been used. Not in 1973, not in 1993, and NOT NOW.

Sears Tower (now Willis Tower) uses Co Gen for heat because of energy consumption concerns...... The generation of electricity heats the building.

Don't they use WSHP's for cooling? and I guess the Co Gen is keeping the loop temp up for the WSHP's. Or maybe it's all different then I've heard?

[Joehvac25]

Here's the hospital I just did csd1

Behind the two steam boilers are 3 massive water boilers, not sure on btu but they each have 2 2" relief valves. This was built in 98. No idiot would use electric around here.

[boilerman856]

Even, in new buildings??

Is this guy for real? This has to be someone messing with us!

Sent from my XT907 using Tapatalk 2

[ControlsInMT]

MHall, it's about time everyone gives up on giving you facts and you ignoring them. You are worse than some of the hard headed individuals in the ARP section. Why don't you do us all a favor and subscribe to some of the trade magazines and start reading them from cover to cover. Once you have an understanding of the TRUE systems being installed in the large variety of buildings out there, perhaps we can have a logical discussion. Your lack of understanding of steam and your belief of electric strip heaters truely shows you have no experience in the industry. If you are going strictly off what "you have personally" been told, do yourself a favor and find a new group of friends to hang out with and ask questions of. Time and time again you have been given examples of hydronic heating in new buildings, steam being used, and NOBODY in their right mind using electric strip heaters as the primary heat source, yet you refuse to accept the truth. Please do us all a favor and yourself and read up on the subject.

Sorry for the rant, I am trying to be polite. Your constant disregard of reality from people that are actually in the trade is starting to wear on people's patience.