Boiler Question

[MHall]

Why don't you instead do research looking for buildings built after 1982 that DO utilize hot water, steam, or district steam?

I have toured several buildings. Those built after 1982; did not utilize hydronic heat.

I did tour a building built in 1904 that did have boilers for HW heating. Of course that building was over 100 years old..........

[MHall]

I asked this question in another thread sometime back. Here was one response which led to my thinking:

BaldLoonie
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Global Moderator
Join Date:May 2000
Location:Indianapolis, IN, USA
Posts:31,117Big office buildings need little heat. So long term, it probably doesn't pay to spend the big bucks on a boiler and piping just for a little morning warmup heat. Also less staff is needed on site without the boiler. And heat pumps, which were mentioned, would eliminate the need for strip heat since they can provide what little heat is needed very cheaply. You'll notice a big building with heat pumps will have the cooling tower running even in bitter weather since most of the suites will be cooling.

[timmy2734]

I have yet to receive a reply on this question; "Why is district steam not utilized in newly constructed buildings for space heating?" The buildings that are connected to a city's steam loop always appear older. And by older, many date back to the 1800s.

Thanks for the input.

I showed you a handful of brand new buildings here in NYC that are connecting to city steam. Why do you continually choose to ignore them?

[MHall]

Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:

supertek65
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Professional Member Join Date:Sep 2004
Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.

But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.

Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!

Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.

The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.

Nothing is free!


DeltaT
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Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.

That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.

Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.

It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.

Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.

[GT Jets]

Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:

supertek65
View Profile View Forum Posts Add as Contact View Forum Threads

Professional Member Join Date:Sep 2004
Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.

But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.

Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!

Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.

The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.

Nothing is free!


DeltaT
View Profile View Forum Posts Add as Contact View Forum Threads

Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.

That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.

Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.

It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.

Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.

In neither of these examples does it say the hydronic heat is being phased out in new construction.

[timmy2734]

Other comments that give me the impression that boilers/district steam are no longer installed in new buildings:

supertek65
View Profile View Forum Posts Add as Contact View Forum Threads

Professional Member Join Date:Sep 2004
Location:8th grade
Posts:13,812Cost cost cost.

But when gas and oil were cheap and comfort was more important than efficiency.
There were dual duct systems!
Heat was sized to be used with cooling in a dual duct application as are 100% of my accounts.

Now single duct vav.
Series and parallel fan powered boxes with strip heat on the perimeter! Basically to wash the windows!

Now they are using lighting with way less watts/btus.

The lack of heat from lighting decreases cooling load but
Increases the heating requirements.

Nothing is free!


DeltaT
View Profile View Forum Posts Add as Contact View Forum Threads

Professional Member*
Join Date:Nov 2001
Location:Seattle, WA
Posts:7,274 Add to that the lack of skills and the emphasis of set it and forget it management based on some type of software looking over all the equipment now not being maintained by skilled workers that pretty much aren't available anymore and the pressure to get the highest rent possible over the short term with the absolute least amount of costs to the building owner and it adds up to what we experience today.

That would mean a penthouse and/or a basement would have to be built and used for non rental space. Any floor space that is horizontal is considerer rentable so it's not going to be used for machinery for heating/cooling the building. And that is also why any new or remodeled building has the HVAC stuff in the ceiling.

Back in the 70's there was a completely different mind set. Machine rooms were common and necessary simply because unitary equipment did not exist. Plus labor was way more skilled, built up systems were the only way to go. Air handlers typically were centralized and the cost of labor and the way of doing business including the costs of doing business was much more humane as compared to today.

It was a era of skill, pride in workmanship, heavily built equipment that would last (as it has) for years and years and a completely different mind set. Most of the money spent back then was based on long term, long lasting investments with a steady economic growth with long term tenants of all kinds.

Now, it's build a big box, fill it with the working stuff in places that are extrememly hard to reach and out of the way of any floor space, tenants that are pushed to extinction by costs and regulations, economic factors that can drive anyone out of business in a few years and technology as an excuse for long lasting and proper performing equipment of all kinds.

So how big are the buidlings that these guys are talking about? How many tons of cooling do they call for? How much heat is needed?

[MHall]

I showed you a handful of brand new buildings here in NYC that are connecting to city steam. Why do you continually choose to ignore them?

I have yet to see any examples of a brand new building using the district steam loop posted here.

[timmy2734]

These were all posted in this thread.

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ct.html/page:1

http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/thesis/po...2%20REPORT.pdf

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...hs.html/page:2

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ue.html/page:2

http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ng.html/page:2

[Joehvac25]

This thread is going nowhere fast lol, just goes in circles!

[timmy2734]

It was going nowhere by page 2 or 3 at best

[MHall]

It was going nowhere by page 2 or 3 at best

I have asked and will continue to ask some legitimate questions related to boilers and hydronic heat. I will try and focus more on the technical details. Thank you to all who have contributed so far!

[timmy2734]

Nobody has a problem with your questions. You just don't seem to listen to what anyone on here has to say.

[meplumber]

I was done with this thread and THIS CHILD after my third attempt to tell him. He doesn't want to listen, so why waste anymore time on him.