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Thread: Boiler Question

  1. #66
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    So you're saying that Stationary Engineers & staff are being phased out due to modernization & automation of equipment. Ok we'll go with that.
    Why on earth are you dead set on entering a field that you know you're being phased out in? I can't say I see the logic in that.

    How many buildings have you been involved in the commissioning of? How many ceilings have you poked your head into only to see duct work missing, access panels that you can't open, thermostats in the wrong spots or missing, things wired wrong, units not even being close to being calibrated because a sub was thrown off the job, do you want me to continue?

    It's easy for you to sit at your computer and assume that a brand new, state of the art building will be nothing short of perfection. But until you deal with it first hand, you have no clue. I have no issue working in an old building. If the staff there is good, most of those issues have already been dealt with.

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy2734 View Post
    So you're saying that Stationary Engineers & staff are being phased out due to modernization & automation of equipment. Ok we'll go with that.
    Why on earth are you dead set on entering a field that you know you're being phased out in? I can't say I see the logic in that.

    How many buildings have you been involved in the commissioning of? How many ceilings have you poked your head into only to see duct work missing, access panels that you can't open, thermostats in the wrong spots or missing, things wired wrong, units not even being close to being calibrated because a sub was thrown off the job, do you want me to continue?

    It's easy for you to sit at your computer and assume that a brand new, state of the art building will be nothing short of perfection. But until you deal with it first hand, you have no clue. I have no issue working in an old building. If the staff there is good, most of those issues have already been dealt with.
    My point was that, those interested in the field should be aware that newer buildings (ie: LEED) aren’t going to need substantial on site help. Sure, they might need a day porter who can change bulbs/ballasts, but highly skilled tradesman (such as boiler operators, master plumbers, electricians, etc) is only seen on site at older properties.

    I take a great interest in this field, and do not believe it is fading out. With so many older buildings being revitalized to reflect their full architectural significance, the need for stationary engineers to service these buildings can only grow.

  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    but highly skilled tradesman (such as boiler operators, master plumbers, electricians, etc) is only seen on site at older properties.
    I'll disagree... Here in NYC new buildings are as well staffed as the old. You still need licensed personal on site.

    As buildings get more complex, you can't cut staff down to a skeleton crew without suffering the consequences. When you have tenants that pay a premium price to rent space, they have the right to have the building jump to cater to their needs. That may just be my opinion though...

  4. #69
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    As I stated earlier, I have a few questions regarding heat recovery chillers.

    Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

    Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.

    Thank you.

  5. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    As I stated earlier, I have a few questions regarding heat recovery chillers.

    Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

    Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.

    Thank you.

    Now we're getting somewhere..

    The answer to your question depends on a crap ton of variables. So lets just break down the basic question.

    Is the basic principal of operation, removing heat from the condensor (and heat generated by the compressor) to generate hot water for heating or other uses? Please, make me aware, if I am incorrect in this assumption.

    The short answer is yes. The heat generated (or in this case relocated) in the condenser is used to counteract the cold, the variables come in when you don't have enough cooling load to pull heat from.


    Another question I have, is if the heat recovery chillers provide hot water heat for the facility, do the chillers run in the winter as well?? Does a facillity with this type of system utilize a backup, (such as heat strips) for the times when the chillers are not in operation?? Any information is appreciated.


    I would not call the recovered heat "HOT" but warm... Not used as a back up, but used in lieu of heat strips... You keep forgetting, heat strips rob you blind. Virtually EVERYTHING we can do to improve energy efficiency and building comfort, while at the same time using something we would otherwise throw away (IE not running cooling towers but rather using that heat to supplement the heating operations of the building) you are hitting a grand slam.

    The problem with your statement is where you say heat strips, it would virtually impossible to use reclaimed heat without a hot water loop, if you have strip heat, why would you have a hydronic heating loop?...


    Your kinda going sideways again/still.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  6. #71
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    QUOTE GT JETS:The problem with your statement is where you say heat strips, it would virtually impossible to use reclaimed heat without a hot water loop, if you have strip heat, why would you have a hydronic heating loop?...


    Your kinda going sideways again/still. [/QUOTE]


    I appreciate your response and information. I was under the impression that heat recovery chillers were used when most viable. I.e.; days when cooling is needed, yet heating is also needed at the perimeter areas.

    Are they ever used as the primary source of heat??? Could they provide the needed heat, during the temperature months?

    I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings. Once again if we are talking about an older building than I can see how it would be possible to have a complete central plant with heat recovery chillers and boilers. Think of the cost of all that piping though....!?

  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    I appreciate your response and information. I was under the impression that heat recovery chillers were used when most viable. I.e.; days when cooling is needed, yet heating is also needed at the perimeter areas.
    This is 100% correct.
    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    Are they ever used as the primary source of heat??? Could they provide the needed heat, during the temperature months?
    They really wont be the "primary" source of heat in most cases. This is where the boiler would come in.

    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings. Once again if we are talking about an older building than I can see how it would be possible to have a complete central plant with heat recovery chillers and boilers. Think of the cost of all that piping though....!?
    This is 100% incorrect...

    I actually took some time to go through our maintenance database this morning. You know what I learned? Not one of the buildings we service (hundreds if not thousands) had electric strip heat as the primary heat source. BTW, we cover a lot of ground.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  8. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings.
    Your not going to let that go are you?

    Can you show me an actual building that uses nothing but strip heat as the only heat source? Just hit me with an address.... I am dying to prove you wrong.

    I can tell you from personal experience that there is not a building within 400 miles of me that has ONLY electric heat.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    Your not going to let that go are you?

    Can you show me an actual building that uses nothing but strip heat as the only heat source? Just hit me with an address.... I am dying to prove you wrong.

    I can tell you from personal experience that there is not a building within 400 miles of me that has ONLY electric heat.

    I can give you several examples;

    Bank of America Plaza. Dallas tallest building. I haved toured it personally: http://www.baplaza.com/Bank%20of%20A...books%20v1.pdf

    Comerica Bank Tower Dallas. I have also toured here and the chief engineer stated that they have electric baseboard heat. No boilers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comerica_Bank_Tower

    527 Madison Avenue NY,http://527madisonave.com/
    I have not toured here personally, but the building specifications speak for themselves. This building is in NY, no Con Edison steam because it is newer.

    This should give you enough of an idea to understand my point. I could find other examples that make my point just as well.


    All these buildings were built in the mid-late 1980s, which was the date I gave for the transition from hydronic to electric heat strips. Buildings older than these, (and I could find examples) use boiler heat. Age appears to be the determining factor in equipment installed in a building.

  10. #75
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    Jun 2006
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    1 world trade completion date 2013, 16" high pressure steam lines
    http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...ct.html/page:1

    Canon Headquarters completion date 2013, nice shiny new boilers installed in a brand new building
    http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...rs.html/page:1

    Goldman Sachs Building, 2008, heated with steam
    http://www.fmmcorp.com/project/detai...hs.html/page:2

    300 madison , heated with steam...

    I'm bored so I really have nothing better to do right now as I can't sleep....
    Last edited by timmy2734; 02-26-2013 at 02:24 AM.

  11. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    I can give you several examples;

    Bank of America Plaza. Dallas tallest building. I haved toured it personally: http://www.baplaza.com/Bank%20of%20A...books%20v1.pdf

    Comerica Bank Tower Dallas. I have also toured here and the chief engineer stated that they have electric baseboard heat. No boilers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comerica_Bank_Tower

    527 Madison Avenue NY,http://527madisonave.com/
    I have not toured here personally, but the building specifications speak for themselves. This building is in NY, no Con Edison steam because it is newer.

    This should give you enough of an idea to understand my point. I could find other examples that make my point just as well.


    All these buildings were built in the mid-late 1980s, which was the date I gave for the transition from hydronic to electric heat strips. Buildings older than these, (and I could find examples) use boiler heat. Age appears to be the determining factor in equipment installed in a building.

    Hold the phone.. You said "new construction" boss... Check again, 527 Madison is NOT a new building. Since when in 1986 new? it's almost twice as old as you are....

    Almost 30 years old is NOT newer., Check into buildings built in the mid 90's on...Using your own criteria, ALL buildings built since then used virtually NO strip heat as their primary heat source.


    Quote Originally Posted by MHall View Post
    I mentioned heat strips, because that is the primary source of heating in all newer buildings.
    At what point do you call a building "old".

    Electricity in the 70's and 80's was almost free.... You still need to go do some homework...

    If you look into this further, you will find that buildings built between about 1970 all the way up until just short of the 1990's, electric everything was used due to the low cost of electricity, once the demands were exceeding supply, the utilities had us right where they wanted us and power generation got crazy expensive, add to that the expense of having to build more plants and the cost of up-sizing transmission lines...

    I can assure you, things have changed dramatically since the mid 1980's.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  12. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmy2734 View Post
    I'm bored so I really have nothing better to do right now as I can't sleep....


    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  13. #78
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    You know, I don't think it's been mentioned plain and clear but did you ever think that the reason they use electric strip heat in these buildings is because your in a warm climate where heating in high rises is barely needed? These places practically heat themselves to about 50-40 degrees. In Dallas that's about the average winter high.

    I could EASILY see the engineers that put these systems together saying that very same thing, and just throwing strip heating in because it's cheapest and will hardly be used anyway.

    Up north hydronics and steam is definitely predominant and looks to stay that way for some time.

    Nothing is the way it seems. Things do go in and out of fashion. Right now I'd say hydronics and chilled water etc have made a bit of a comeback.

    And don't forget alot of decisions are made based strictly on money, cost effectiveness etc. There really is no set date for when anything went in/out of fashion lost/gained popularity etc. Everything is different city to city, building by building.

    You seem like you could use some more hands on experience, outside of your home evironment. Things really are a bit different then how your original statements make it sound.

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