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  1. #79
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    Aug 2004
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    Wow! We have a identified the ghost of Karl Marx! You are so clueless and so thoroughly indoctrinated there is no hope of truth having any effect on you

  2. #80
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    Feb 2013
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    Florida
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    While people bicker over who is good, bad, patriot or traitor, the big corporations who support both sides continue to rake in huge profits. Whether through tax breaks and military contracts or various public assistance programs and foreign aid, the money keeps flowing to them. This is no accident, but a carefully choreographed plan. Hopefully, this thread will not be a complete waste. Maybe some superstar tech can calculate the increased load from all this hot air

  3. #81
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    Sep 2012
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    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Wow! We have a identified the ghost of Karl Marx! You are so clueless and so thoroughly indoctrinated there is no hope of truth having any effect on you

    His analysis is pretty much spot on. This is from a believer in capitalism and someone that is much closer to a libertarian then a liberal. I work for a company producing customized commercial equipment as a tester. I started as a bench electrical wireman. I made control panels. They taught me nothing about anything that I have been doing. Everything I really know is from independent research. I ask every step of the way to learn more. I ask to be allowed into piping, sheet metal, service or the lab because I want to learn. I get denied at every time because I am needed in testing or electrical, even when we are slow to the point of having hours cut. If you object? Well as the plant manager says, there is the door, everyone is replaceable.

    That said, what has caused this work place environment is the government regulations and trade agreements that have given massive competitive advantages to companies that operate in this manor. Small business that value employees can not compete because they are small business and the economics of scale grant a competitive advantage to those large corporations when complying with government regulations.

  4. #82
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    Nov 2001
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    Seattle, WA
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    7,744
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Odd side note, but when I read Hearthman's post I thought it sounded more like the fall of the Roman Empire. Fairly stunning difference, but either way a disaster.
    Interesting observation. But in both cases the two forms of subject both were in the process of failing from implosion. Germany still exists in name only but what Germany represented in the late twentys to the mid 40's has, for the most part, destructed upon it's own ignorance.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  5. #83
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Rochester, NY, USA
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    14,192
    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    Just a note from the real world.

    On January 19th, the last full day of President Bush's (43) presidency, the Dow closed at 8218.22.

    Today the dow seems to be above 14000.

    Back to the delusional show in progress.

    in 2009 it hit 6547......uuuum, that must have been Bushes fault to.
    BEING AN ADULT

    is the dumbest thing I have ever done

  6. #84
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    Jul 2007
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    Delaware
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    in 2009 it hit 6547......uuuum, that must have been Bushes fault to.
    Yes, and others. That was March 6th, and it has been going UP ever since!
    Always here

  7. #85
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    Sep 2012
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    Central Florida
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post
    Yes, and others. That was March 6th, and it has been going UP ever since!
    actually it goes up and down. I wonder why people think that it means anything except how well investment day traders are doing?

  8. #86
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,931
    I also believe there needs to be some balance in business and wealth. If we have too few mega companies even if they got that way "fair and square" through capatilism, it actually can hurt capatilism by creating near monopoliies. And as mentioned taxing someone more who has a high income is fairer than taxing someone who works his butt off and can just barely make ends meet. Call it whatever you want but if this country has been good to you no matter how hard you worked or didn't work for it, you should be obliged to give back to those that directly or indirectly helped you get there. Even for example if it means some "poor" people will only make 1.8 million a year instead of 2 million. If a thousand people worked hard so that one person could have millions, Its not redistribution of wealth, its not communism, it just a sense of fair play that he should "give back" to the country and people that helped make him who he is.

    The people that I have a problem with are the ones who are milking our system and doing nothing for it. I dont have a problem giving someone a helping hand, I just dont want them to take everything. I dont have a problem giving a WORKING mom help with child care or buying food. Its someone like the person I started this thread about that I have a problem with.
    http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....yone-stop-this

  9. #87
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    Jul 2007
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    Delaware
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    actually it goes up and down. I wonder why people think that it means anything except how well investment day traders are doing?
    Yes, I'm aware of that. Point is, it's been on an upward movement since that date.
    Always here

  10. #88
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    Jul 2007
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    Delaware
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    http://vimeo.com/54817244

    I posted this in another thread. Check it out
    Always here

  11. #89
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    Apr 2007
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    Kaufman county, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    It seems you don't understand what "empowerment" means. I need to warn you in advance you may need to put your thinking cap on to keep up with my response.

    The people who don't understand the definition of empowerment and implications are usually the same people who don't understand the difference between unbridled corporatism and fair, regulated capitalism. You my friend are light years behind a true understanding of the damage done by the former.

    Empowerment, in a nutshell it is basically the difference between a person who works a dead end job with no interest in the job and a person who works a job but has his interests intertwined in the fabric of the organization and thus finds that he or she has continued increased worth to the organization.

    The problem with big corporations is they understand this concept all to well and use it to benefit the few and disenfranchise the masses. You probably think places like Walmart, and Staples, and all those cookie cutter franchises out there are better than traditional merchants. The difference between the two is that modern day corporate America, in order to be successful, must have as few people as possible acting in integral roles in their organization. It is basically a hamburger university on a bigger level. Nobody is trained to do more than a few things. This makes them truly expendable. It makes their worth to the organization non existent. They are now DISEMPOWERED.

    You might say, "well, that's what makes it possible for these large organizations to work." And if you said that you would be right. If you were to say, "well that's necessary if you want to have cheaper goods and services," you would be right. The problem is you are also getting cheaper quality, thus my earlier reference to not being able to find a North Face jacket at walmart. You want a walmart in you town? Say goodbye to any employee that knows anything more than how to stock shelves and do basic math.

    If you still don't understand how empowerment works you can take a look at your buddy Romney, or as many military people like to call his family, "TEAM CHICKENHAWK". After he dodged the draft under his "missionary exemption" his "success" as a "vulture" capitalist involved consulting with companies and either running them into the ground for short term profit (at the expense of lost jobs, benefits, pensions,etc,etc), then selling off the assets (thus the term dismantle), and then giving himself, his company, and a few select execs a huge payoff or he and his "capital management" firm would "reorganize" a company, which would involve... guess what...ding ding ding ding ding....DISEMPOWERING employees.

    Lets say you work for an HVAC company. There are 10 HVAC companies in your surrounding area. Each company has a handful of good techs and maybe a dozen apprentices. 10 companies, 5 good techs at each company, 3 apprentices at each company. That's 50 good techs and 30 apprentices. Now enter corporation X. Corporation X either buys or squashes the 10 HVAC companies by undercutting prices or just writing a check to the owners. Corporation hires 10 good techs and 70 apprentices. But they disempower the apprentices, no room for advancement, and deliberate departmentalization of their duties (think hamburger university again). The apprentices are trained to sell equipment and various other tasks that improve profit margin, but add little their knowledge base. The customer thinks he or she is getting a great deal on a new piece of equipment, etc, etc. Its a cheaper furnace than the old companies provided. So we have now traded cheaper furnaces for 40 good jobs. You can talk about "buying power" if you want. Just don't talk about "buying power" if you are making apprentice wages with no room for advancement.

    You could argue that "well"...."Walmart creates jobs!" That's true. They do create jobs, just not good ones. You could argue, "well, a bunch of ****ty jobs is better than no jobs!" Well, that's true too. The only problem is you siphon money out of the community, create urban sprawl, and force local merchants out of business. Your net result may not be positive taking into account these factors as well as the fact that should your local merchant close his doors you will have no choice but to go to walmart and select whatever they have decided to sell you, not to mention your local merchant just closed his doors, is unemployed and has to go work at walmart, as well as the other empowered people that used to be part if his company.


    Taxes...you wanna talk taxes....Where should we start. How about the fact that wealth is not created by the wealthy. It is created by the profit margin they receive off the backs of the working class. Lets say that again, wealth is not created by the wealthy, you cannot create wealth without having other individuals sweat for you. Is it the employees that should be thankful for the boss, or the boss that should be thankful to the employees? Now we can talk about taxes. Who are you gonna tax more, a person who has 90% of their income go to the necessities , or a person who has 1% of their income go to the necessities. Who are you gonna tax more, someone who sweats 12 hours a day to make another man richer, or the rich man who sleeps 10 hours a night and will never want for anything, nor will his children, as they will inherit. You will find that a democracy that cannot collect from the rich ceases to be a democracy. Oh ya, your 63% tax rate is based on fiction. You cannot tax what you cannot find. Its called hidden wealth, section 179, a ranch in Nevada, 'business' expenses, 'business' travel, if we could collect taxes in this country we wouldn't be talking about taking away gramma and grampas meds and social security. We wouldn't be talking about cutting funding for head start, or privatizing school bus service, or allowing our elementary schools to crumble.

    The children and the old people will always be more important than corporatism. We do not owe our prosperity to corporate America, Corporate America owes its prosperity to its the past, abandoned employees, now siting in nursing homes. Corporate America owes its prosperity to me and you.
    Karl Marx 101, everyone already knows all this stuff. No need to get winded explaining it.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  12. #90
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Boise, ID
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    4,247
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Karl Marx 101, everyone already knows all this stuff. No need to get winded explaining it.
    Yes, but does it not give an odd sense of pleasure to wizzz past the post after scanning over a half dozen sentences?
    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what will never be. (Thomas Jefferson 1816)

  13. #91
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    His analysis is pretty much spot on. This is from a believer in capitalism and someone that is much closer to a libertarian then a liberal. I work for a company producing customized commercial equipment as a tester. I started as a bench electrical wireman. I made control panels. They taught me nothing about anything that I have been doing. Everything I really know is from independent research. I ask every step of the way to learn more. I ask to be allowed into piping, sheet metal, service or the lab because I want to learn. I get denied at every time because I am needed in testing or electrical, even when we are slow to the point of having hours cut. If you object? Well as the plant manager says, there is the door, everyone is replaceable.

    That said, what has caused this work place environment is the government regulations and trade agreements that have given massive competitive advantages to companies that operate in this manor. Small business that value employees can not compete because they are small business and the economics of scale grant a competitive advantage to those large corporations when complying with government regulations.
    I think you guys should stop complaining. I understand how bad it sucks when you are in debt and the job has zero potential, my life story, work to pay bills and make someone else rich. It truly sucks, but then you get your break, our system of government and economic regulation provides this break. You can land a great job or start your own business or marry an ugly rich widow.

    The paths to personal success in the USA are unlimited. The narrow path to failure is socialism/marxism/communism. Raping the rich will not help you pull yourself out of the mud you are wallowing in. You are going to have to pull yourself up by your bootstraps and become "a man in charge of his own destiny". You will not accomplish this with a jealous eye on others, certainly not corporate executives that consider you little more than an ant, you will have to do this for yourself. Expect no help, but love them dearly if you get it.

    It's your life, your job, your problem, and not mine. I do not want my nation screwed up by some folks who are pizzed off about their job. Bunch of whiners.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

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