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  1. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    One thing you must understand about your typical "modern" conservative is that their perfect solutions only work in their perfect world. Reality has a strong liberal bias, so don't expect these folks to step out of their bubble.

    Now get back to work! You say your back and knees are sore from years of manual labor - get used to it - if these righties get their way you will be toten that barge till you are ninety. And when you can't do it anymore just have the decency to die. Problem solved, simplicity in the eyes of a simpleton T Partier.

    Kettle..... black. Liberals and conservatives have the exact same problem. Liberals think that people in power will not be corrupted and act for the best interests of the people they represent. Conservatives think that people in business will not be corrupted and will act in their companies best interest. The reality is that people are advocating systems. Both systems have the same problem. People who desire power will do what they have to gather it and keep it, and it does not matter if that power is governmental or corporate based. AKA both liberals and conservatives live in silly dream worlds that have no real bearing on reality.

  2. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Kettle..... black. Liberals and conservatives have the exact same problem. Liberals think that people in power will not be corrupted and act for the best interests of the people they represent. Conservatives think that people in business will not be corrupted and will act in their companies best interest. The reality is that people are advocating systems. Both systems have the same problem. People who desire power will do what they have to gather it and keep it, and it does not matter if that power is governmental or corporate based. AKA both liberals and conservatives live in silly dream worlds that have no real bearing on reality.
    I dont think anyone with an IQ above eleven, on either side believes businesses or politicians are above greed or coruption. Were all human, and human nature, the good and the bad will always be a factor. Most of us do the best we can within the system we have. And for the most part its been a pretty good system for most Americans.

  3. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Obama has no intention of ever paying back any debts, which is why he is the worst spendaholic in recorded history. He is planning on a global economic and cultural collapse that will leave him in command not only during martial law but until he dies. Meanwhile, once the world's monetary base is destroyed, it will be like declaring bankruptcy. You simply erase the ledger and start all over as though it never existed. Meanwhile, the medieval times will place the balance of the public into his hands in whatever form of slavery/ serfdom/ indentured service/ gulag/ eradication he wants. This is how you become the ruler of the world in spite of minor obstacles like Constitutions, guns and God. He can taste it now and is assembling his assault teams of crony politicians, generals, businessmen and fanatics to do his dirty work for him. Like most totalitarian dictators, he is surrounded by willing minions to do his killing. stealing, cheating, lying and false imprisoning for him. He is one of the most evil characters in the history of the world. One day he will reach a temp of over 800F in a lake of burning sulfur and spend the rest of eternity there. We'll see how much he laughs then.
    Been saying that for years but not as well. If there were a time in comparison in history I think it would be Germany in the late 20's. The weak and lazy run to bow at the feet of their idol while he sets about to destruct their very lives.

    This week the news is full of the British lady and her "baby bump" yet there has not been one sentence of truth about the murder of our two marines and the government official nor has idiot head in the big house even said one word about his responsibility.

    It's so easy to keep the clueless, clueless.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  4. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    I dont think anyone with an IQ above eleven, on either side believes businesses or politicians are above greed or coruption. Were all human, and human nature, the good and the bad will always be a factor. Most of us do the best we can within the system we have. And for the most part its been a pretty good system for most Americans.
    It's a sorta ok system, but it's not what it was even 20 years ago. We are slowly dissolving into a police state, with the war on drugs, the war on terror, and whatever war the politicians come up with next to keep people in fear.

    We have massive issues and the whole liberals vs conservatives war needs to end because both groups are being massively played.

  5. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    I dont think anyone with an IQ above eleven, on either side believes businesses or politicians are above greed or coruption. Were all human, and human nature, the good and the bad will always be a factor. Most of us do the best we can within the system we have. And for the most part its been a pretty good system for most Americans.
    Thats just not so, these people are neither good or bad, or humane for that matter, these people are evil in every way you look at it...
    .................................................. ...........................................

    Now, globalists are not the only source of our social pain. We bear some responsibility. When we are not vigilant, when we deny our own ignorance and refuse to learn, when we lie to ourselves, when we cater to personal superficial desires rather than taking the future into account, we open the door for the devil, as it were. Evil, like conscience,
    resides in us all.
    .................................................. ............................................

    That said, globalists are not just terrible people in a random sense. They have constructed an entire culture of deviance. They are organized evil, and this is a problem that we must deal with soon. Good men are defined not only by their adherence to the inner voice of truth, but also their willingness to act when the truth is threatened. We must educate others, and when the time comes, put ourselves in harms way to remove the globalist ilk, before they destroy everything in a raging elitist fervor….

    http://www.zengardner.com/global-eli...y-evil-people/

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  6. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Spoken like a true Marxist. The ultra rich already pay most of the taxes. How have franchises and Wal-Mart's bankrupted us? Last time I checked, Wally Mart has low prices which increases your buying power. How does a lack of factories bankrupt us? The reason there are few factories left is because big labor and governmental regulation have together pushed the cost of business over the edge so mfg. has moved offshore. Obamacare is what is screwing our elderly in their care. The death panels have already been emerging when they talk about limiting care based upon a person's utility vs. projected lifespan. That's eugenics. Look it up. You have been trained and indoctrinated to hate business and you don't even understand why.

    As for caring for our elderly tell us what's more "fair" or ethical:
    -warehouse them away from family where they are cared for like cattle vs. live at home with family and maybe hire some part time nursing help as needed?
    -encourage people to surrender their life savings and houses to pay for one of these human warehouses (nursing homes) or keep their assets and use them to help your own family pay for your waning years?
    -tell people not to save money because the government will take care of them in their late years even though MC/MCD and SS can not and will not be able to keep up with the cost of living and are going busted because the government stole from them or encourage saving and investing so you have a nest egg to live off of without government's hand on your wallet and telling you how to live?
    -raise some of your food, store some for a rainy day and make your home self sufficient for extended periods such as post-disasters or live like sheep in a slaughter pen waiting your turn?
    -be responsible for your own actions and live within your means or live immorally and irresponsibly then expect everyone else to pay for your life choices?


    Let me ask you a question our little commie: exactly how much is enough from the ultra rich, the very rich and the basically wealthy? I mean let's cut to the chase. You liberals constantly whine about needing to raise taxes for pay for social programs you invent to rule other people's lives and enslave them or you plain just want to punish success while you don't mind enjoying the fruits of their success such as i Phones, computers, cars, homes, grocery stores, clothes, healthcare, etc. So, if you were dictator for a day, just how much of the annual salary do you think the government should take from someone who grosses $1million/ yr.?
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    It's a sorta ok system, but it's not what it was even 20 years ago. We are slowly dissolving into a police state, with the war on drugs, the war on terror, and whatever war the politicians come up with next to keep people in fear.

    We have massive issues and the whole liberals vs conservatives war needs to end because both groups are being massively played.
    THE WAR ON TERROR! If that isn't the propaganda slogan of the decade I don't know what is. Lets just suppose for a minute that the events of 9/11 happened the way the Bush administration said they did. That assumption rests on the belief we have in a commission based on the opinions of other politicians, not mechanical or structural engineers, seems kinda funny don't ya think. But lets just suppose it all happened that way. The question is why? Why would someone attack us? Most people don't even know where to began when answering that question. Most people say: "well...ugh...its...its because...they are...Terrorists!...that's why!" Ask someone else who believes the hype and they will answer: "Well....its because 'they'....'they'....'they'...hate us...they are Extremists!" Even asking the question assumes 'they' attacked us. Even asking the question doesn't make sense because it is based on spoon fed explanations from an administration in bed with the biggest and oldest defense contractor in the business. It is sad when both sides of an argument have been planned and set up in order to play the public for fools during times of war. The really sad part is, it is not the first time nor will it be the last.
    If we had bacon we could have bacon and eggs......if we had eggs.

  7. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    THE WAR ON TERROR! If that isn't the propaganda slogan of the decade I don't know what is. Lets just suppose for a minute that the events of 9/11 happened the way the Bush administration said they did. That assumption rests on the belief we have in a commission based on the opinions of other politicians, not mechanical or structural engineers, seems kinda funny don't ya think. But lets just suppose it all happened that way. The question is why? Why would someone attack us? Most people don't even know where to began when answering that question. Most people say: "well...ugh...its...its because...they are...Terrorists!...that's why!" Ask someone else who believes the hype and they will answer: "Well....its because 'they'....'they'....'they'...hate us...they are Extremists!" Even asking the question assumes 'they' attacked us. Even asking the question doesn't make sense because it is based on spoon fed explanations from an administration in bed with the biggest and oldest defense contractor in the business. It is sad when both sides of an argument have been planned and set up in order to play the public for fools during times of war. The really sad part is, it is not the first time nor will it be the last.
    They attacked us mostly because of our foreign policy ie support of Israel and what they see as the USA supporting governments like Saudi Arabia. They want to eliminate Israel and any other country that doesn't support what we would consider radical Islam. America is obviously the biggest and strongest target to them, "the great Satan." Pretty easy for me to see.

  8. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    They attacked us mostly because of our foreign policy ie support of Israel and what they see as the USA supporting governments like Saudi Arabia. They want to eliminate Israel and any other country that doesn't support what we would consider radical Islam. America is obviously the biggest and strongest target to them, "the great Satan." Pretty easy for me to see.

    When you start doing the research you find that pretty much the main cause of terrorism is occupation. We have been backing brutal dictators such as Saddam Hussain, the Shaw of Iran, Gaddafi of Libya, The Taliban of Afghanistan, Hosni Mubarak of Egypt. People do not offer to kill themselves for religion. They kill themselves when they have brutal blood thirst dictator installed over them. Israel is just the tip of the iceburg and not the main story about why terrorism exists. We have been pushing people into radical Islam because it gives them hope, however deluded that hope might be. The are not killing themselves because they hate our freedoms.

  9. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    Your response is predictable.Thank you. Logic is predictable Someone starts talking about taxes and how corporate america has ruined mainstreet and pretty soon someone is calling them a "commie". You probably voted for Romney too, even though he has been dismantling companies for years, ever since his daddy got him out of the draft. Obama and wealthy liberals have been moving mfg offshore at a faster and faster pace because of the gov't regulation, taxes and high labor costs. You libs always claim conservatives are the only ones moving businesses offshore. Romney dismantled and rebuilt companies, too which preserved and created jobs. Ask yourself what this country has traded more "buying power". Ever try to find a subject matter expert at walmart? Shelves and shelves of cheap crap and people making minimum wage is what you find. $17.50/hr starting in North Dakota Wally Mart Can you find a North Face jacket at walmart. stupid point. Can you find Kraft Macaroni at Ruth's Criss Steak House? Is there a butcher you can take a hind quarter to? Is there anybody who gives a crap about their ****ty job. You think disempowering employees how?and putting small business (real small business) out of business is worth the 20 bucks you save? Apparently America likes low prices because the cost of living is going up thx to gov't Do you know why you are saving? Because Walmart opitimizes the meaning of funneling wealth to the top by using a business plan that destroys decent jobs in the community. It is in every corporations best interest to have a large pool of unemployed people around. This is just retarded. They want happy workers dude because happy workers are more productive-long proven fact You know why you are saving? Because of economies of scale. Something a corporation can do if they operate on a large enough scale. The catch is, everything depends on disempowerment Did you learn this word at your commie rallies?and minimum wage.Wally Mart is not designed for a career path dude. It is ENTRY LEVEL. Minimum wage laws result in lost jobs.

    How much should the independently wealthy pay in taxes? A hell of a lot more than they pay now.Sure, that 63% they pay the gov't in income tax is waaaaay too low isn't it? Never mind corporate taxes, dividend taxes, excise taxes, capital gains taxes, even taxes on your estate when you die You may not understand how the wealthy look at money. Its not how you and me look at money. They do not look at money in terms of what they get paid hourly. They do not get up in the morning and work 10-14 hours like the rest of us working stiffs. The look at what they already have and they devise ways to preserve it. If they are smart. You don't?They find ways to shift expenses and depreciation and blur the line between net and gross. They hire accountants and lawyers to figure out how to hide their money from the government.If they are good business men they will avail themselves of all the laws provided by those liberals who wrote loopholes for their cronies Because the government wants to "steal" their money. Now you're getting it! The governments wants to "steal" their money to build new schools and post offices and roads and bridges, etc. etc. LOL!!!!!!
    "Be responsible?" "pay your own way?" What happens when you can't? Welfare for the truly needy is not 47% of the population dude What happens when your a kid? When your spouse bails and you have 4 kids?Life When your prescription drugs skyrocket because of big pharma? When you can't see as good? When your back fails, or your knees quit? That's why you should save instead of blowing every penny you make thinking the gov't will take care of these thingsMaybe, just maybe, if you are lucky, you get to work 30 good solid years before the rug is pulled out from under you. Then what? You might have managed to save enough over the years. The liberals are encouraging you to live irresponsibly and blow it all Years of college tuition, sue happy neighbors, maintaining vehicles, homes, and the lives of your children.
    That settles it: you're afraid of life man!

  10. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    Been saying that for years but not as well. If there were a time in comparison in history I think it would be Germany in the late 20's. The weak and lazy run to bow at the feet of their idol while he sets about to destruct their very lives.

    This week the news is full of the British lady and her "baby bump" yet there has not been one sentence of truth about the murder of our two marines and the government official nor has idiot head in the big house even said one word about his responsibility.

    It's so easy to keep the clueless, clueless.
    Odd side note, but when I read Hearthman's post I thought it sounded more like the fall of the Roman Empire. Fairly stunning difference, but either way a disaster.
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  11. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    That settles it: you're afraid of life man!
    I see this as not so much a fear of life but a reasonable expectation that a lifetime of hard work won't be gobbled up by institutions and individuals that really don't need his resources to survive but take them because they can. Capitalism has no soul and if left unregulated devours everything, even if that means it insures it's own demise. I know some will see any restrictions to unbridled capitalism as only something a commie would suggest but regulation and taxation strengthen the system not weaken it. Everything is not black and white, seeking purity in systems devised by man is a fools errand.

  12. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    I see this as not so much a fear of life but a reasonable expectation that a lifetime of hard work won't be gobbled up by institutions and individuals that really don't need his resources to survive but take them because they can. Capitalism has no soul and if left unregulated devours everything, even if that means it insures it's own demise. I know some will see any restrictions to unbridled capitalism as only something a commie would suggest but regulation and taxation strengthen the system not weaken it. Everything is not black and white, seeking purity in systems devised by man is a fools errand.
    The problem with regulation is it gives rise to bodies such as the EPA which becomes a source of corruption and a means to force smaller competitors out of the market place. These regulatory bodies, over time, fall prey to regulatory capture and just become a tool for large banks and corporations to control the marketplace. Not every abuse wrought by capitalism can be traced back to government and regulation but a great deal of it can be. So the question is, who regulates the regulators? Who do you trust?

    You are correct when you say that capitalism has no soul but neither does socialism, fascism or any other system you can think up. They are just systems and all fall prey to a simple rule anyone has learned about computer systems and programming. Garbage in, garbage out and these systems are designed by humans with all their self interests, greed and corruption so you will always end up with garbage in the system.

  13. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    That settles it: you're afraid of life man!

    It seems you don't understand what "empowerment" means. I need to warn you in advance you may need to put your thinking cap on to keep up with my response.

    The people who don't understand the definition of empowerment and implications are usually the same people who don't understand the difference between unbridled corporatism and fair, regulated capitalism. You my friend are light years behind a true understanding of the damage done by the former.

    Empowerment, in a nutshell it is basically the difference between a person who works a dead end job with no interest in the job and a person who works a job but has his interests intertwined in the fabric of the organization and thus finds that he or she has continued increased worth to the organization.

    The problem with big corporations is they understand this concept all to well and use it to benefit the few and disenfranchise the masses. You probably think places like Walmart, and Staples, and all those cookie cutter franchises out there are better than traditional merchants. The difference between the two is that modern day corporate America, in order to be successful, must have as few people as possible acting in integral roles in their organization. It is basically a hamburger university on a bigger level. Nobody is trained to do more than a few things. This makes them truly expendable. It makes their worth to the organization non existent. They are now DISEMPOWERED.

    You might say, "well, that's what makes it possible for these large organizations to work." And if you said that you would be right. If you were to say, "well that's necessary if you want to have cheaper goods and services," you would be right. The problem is you are also getting cheaper quality, thus my earlier reference to not being able to find a North Face jacket at walmart. You want a walmart in you town? Say goodbye to any employee that knows anything more than how to stock shelves and do basic math.

    If you still don't understand how empowerment works you can take a look at your buddy Romney, or as many military people like to call his family, "TEAM CHICKENHAWK". After he dodged the draft under his "missionary exemption" his "success" as a "vulture" capitalist involved consulting with companies and either running them into the ground for short term profit (at the expense of lost jobs, benefits, pensions,etc,etc), then selling off the assets (thus the term dismantle), and then giving himself, his company, and a few select execs a huge payoff or he and his "capital management" firm would "reorganize" a company, which would involve... guess what...ding ding ding ding ding....DISEMPOWERING employees.

    Lets say you work for an HVAC company. There are 10 HVAC companies in your surrounding area. Each company has a handful of good techs and maybe a dozen apprentices. 10 companies, 5 good techs at each company, 3 apprentices at each company. That's 50 good techs and 30 apprentices. Now enter corporation X. Corporation X either buys or squashes the 10 HVAC companies by undercutting prices or just writing a check to the owners. Corporation hires 10 good techs and 70 apprentices. But they disempower the apprentices, no room for advancement, and deliberate departmentalization of their duties (think hamburger university again). The apprentices are trained to sell equipment and various other tasks that improve profit margin, but add little their knowledge base. The customer thinks he or she is getting a great deal on a new piece of equipment, etc, etc. Its a cheaper furnace than the old companies provided. So we have now traded cheaper furnaces for 40 good jobs. You can talk about "buying power" if you want. Just don't talk about "buying power" if you are making apprentice wages with no room for advancement.

    You could argue that "well"...."Walmart creates jobs!" That's true. They do create jobs, just not good ones. You could argue, "well, a bunch of ****ty jobs is better than no jobs!" Well, that's true too. The only problem is you siphon money out of the community, create urban sprawl, and force local merchants out of business. Your net result may not be positive taking into account these factors as well as the fact that should your local merchant close his doors you will have no choice but to go to walmart and select whatever they have decided to sell you, not to mention your local merchant just closed his doors, is unemployed and has to go work at walmart, as well as the other empowered people that used to be part if his company.


    Taxes...you wanna talk taxes....Where should we start. How about the fact that wealth is not created by the wealthy. It is created by the profit margin they receive off the backs of the working class. Lets say that again, wealth is not created by the wealthy, you cannot create wealth without having other individuals sweat for you. Is it the employees that should be thankful for the boss, or the boss that should be thankful to the employees? Now we can talk about taxes. Who are you gonna tax more, a person who has 90% of their income go to the necessities , or a person who has 1% of their income go to the necessities. Who are you gonna tax more, someone who sweats 12 hours a day to make another man richer, or the rich man who sleeps 10 hours a night and will never want for anything, nor will his children, as they will inherit. You will find that a democracy that cannot collect from the rich ceases to be a democracy. Oh ya, your 63% tax rate is based on fiction. You cannot tax what you cannot find. Its called hidden wealth, section 179, a ranch in Nevada, 'business' expenses, 'business' travel, if we could collect taxes in this country we wouldn't be talking about taking away gramma and grampas meds and social security. We wouldn't be talking about cutting funding for head start, or privatizing school bus service, or allowing our elementary schools to crumble.

    The children and the old people will always be more important than corporatism. We do not owe our prosperity to corporate America, Corporate America owes its prosperity to its the past, abandoned employees, now siting in nursing homes. Corporate America owes its prosperity to me and you.
    If we had bacon we could have bacon and eggs......if we had eggs.

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