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  1. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    Spoken like someone in midst of their most profitable working years. Your opinions will change as your body ages. We are alot longer old than we are young. Taking care of the old and sick is what we are supposed to do.....soon it will be our turn to be old and sick. Pretty lame man to disrespect the old people, pretty lame. Our nursing homes are not bankrupting this country, its the refusal of the ultra rich to pay taxesand the politicians supporting them. Its the made up wars and defense contracts . Its the franchises and walmarts and the lack of factories that had bankrupted us. We will always be able to take care of our old and infirm.
    Who did i disrespect? Did i say we should not care for our parents and grandparents? No, i did not. I said that "the forced robbery of the working young, to give to the non-working elderly, has done NO good for this country", and I stand by that. It does not require medicare or social security for a offspring to care for their parents. That said, I am also against unnecessary prolonging of life beyond the positive years. In my experiences with my family members, and patients, is that the last 10 years of the average american's life brings nearly no new joys, and costs more in medical expenses than the entire rest of their life did. How is that truly taking care of our old and infirm? The very fact that you call them infirm proves that they are not really capable of living a fruitful life past that point. If a family decides they want to extend someone's life past it's natural healthy length, THAT family should bear the burden of that decision, not the whole country.

  2. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    Spoken like someone in midst of their most profitable working years. Your opinions will change as your body ages. We are alot longer old than we are young. Taking care of the old and sick is what we are supposed to do.....soon it will be our turn to be old and sick. Pretty lame man to disrespect the old people, pretty lame. Our nursing homes are not bankrupting this country, its the refusal of the ultra rich to pay taxesand the politicians supporting them. Its the made up wars and defense contracts . Its the franchises and walmarts and the lack of factories that had bankrupted us. We will always be able to take care of our old and infirm.
    There is no refusal to pay taxes. The tax code is unfair and will continue to be unfair. How dare the POTUS continue to tell everybody we all need to pay our fair share when he knows it's fixed. Fair is equal. Equal is the same. Fair means everyone with income pays the same percentage with no deductions and those with no income pay an equal consumption tax. There is no other definition of fair when it comes to taxes, period.

    Walmart hasn't bankrupted us. Society has. This is the way our country has turned. We have accepted that all goods are somewhat disposable and all Walmart has done has given the American public what they want. Why is it acceptable for an individual to pay $300 for a new cellphone every year with a $1200 annual contract, and collect foodstamps?
    Officially, Down for the count

    YOU HAVE TO GET OFF YOUR ASS TO GET ON YOUR FEET

    I know enough to know, I don't know enough
    Liberalism-Ideas so good they mandate them

  3. #55
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    Aug 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    Spoken like someone in midst of their most profitable working years. Your opinions will change as your body ages. We are alot longer old than we are young. Taking care of the old and sick is what we are supposed to do.....soon it will be our turn to be old and sick. Pretty lame man to disrespect the old people, pretty lame. Our nursing homes are not bankrupting this country, its the refusal of the ultra rich to pay taxesand the politicians supporting them. Its the made up wars and defense contracts . Its the franchises and walmarts and the lack of factories that had bankrupted us. We will always be able to take care of our old and infirm.
    Spoken like a true Marxist. The ultra rich already pay most of the taxes. How have franchises and Wal-Mart's bankrupted us? Last time I checked, Wally Mart has low prices which increases your buying power. How does a lack of factories bankrupt us? The reason there are few factories left is because big labor and governmental regulation have together pushed the cost of business over the edge so mfg. has moved offshore. Obamacare is what is screwing our elderly in their care. The death panels have already been emerging when they talk about limiting care based upon a person's utility vs. projected lifespan. That's eugenics. Look it up. You have been trained and indoctrinated to hate business and you don't even understand why.

    As for caring for our elderly tell us what's more "fair" or ethical:
    -warehouse them away from family where they are cared for like cattle vs. live at home with family and maybe hire some part time nursing help as needed?
    -encourage people to surrender their life savings and houses to pay for one of these human warehouses (nursing homes) or keep their assets and use them to help your own family pay for your waning years?
    -tell people not to save money because the government will take care of them in their late years even though MC/MCD and SS can not and will not be able to keep up with the cost of living and are going busted because the government stole from them or encourage saving and investing so you have a nest egg to live off of without government's hand on your wallet and telling you how to live?
    -raise some of your food, store some for a rainy day and make your home self sufficient for extended periods such as post-disasters or live like sheep in a slaughter pen waiting your turn?
    -be responsible for your own actions and live within your means or live immorally and irresponsibly then expect everyone else to pay for your life choices?


    Let me ask you a question our little commie: exactly how much is enough from the ultra rich, the very rich and the basically wealthy? I mean let's cut to the chase. You liberals constantly whine about needing to raise taxes for pay for social programs you invent to rule other people's lives and enslave them or you plain just want to punish success while you don't mind enjoying the fruits of their success such as i Phones, computers, cars, homes, grocery stores, clothes, healthcare, etc. So, if you were dictator for a day, just how much of the annual salary do you think the government should take from someone who grosses $1million/ yr.?

  4. #56
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    Dec 2011
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    New Zealand
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    Well done gents, on a generally excellent and informative thread.
    I see it this way, there is a cost of life, this cost goes up and down based upon quality.
    So I give a simple example, you work for one company all you working life, then the total cost of your life has to be borne directly or indirectly (taxes) by the company that you worked for. Practically this cost is shifted across a number of generations.
    So how then do measure quality of life or is just quantity of life that is important?

  5. #57
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    Seattle, WA
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    7,774
    The inputs seem to have turned to the value of life, which I think is an interesting and good focus along with all the other points.

    This is what I see in this present world and administration. For the first time in history a focus and price has been put on the value of a persons well being. And life/death judgements are now beginning to be made by a central force of logic and cost benefits and not by the close individuals involved with that person.

    obama does not value us Americans. He only values himself and his mirror. And this is a new factor in our country. It was also a factor in Japan and Germany during WWII. Citizens meant nothing and were expendable but the elite - defined by those thinking and acting and agreeing with the ruler - were priviledged and lived an elaborate life style.

    So, as an abstract example, the Army, Rangers, Marines, Special Forces will not leave a soldier behind. And sometimes this policy causes the death, harm to other soldiers in the persuit of retrieving him/her.

    Those of us that swore to defend The Constitution of The United States against all enemies, within our borders and outside of our borders are pretty much sure of which way we would follow that policy of not leaving any of our members behind.

    But what I'm reading between some of the lines here is that some of you would just say every man for himself and if you determined the cost to be past what you think it should be you would leave those in harms way behind.

    Right or Wrong?
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  6. #58
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    Delaware
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    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    This is what I see in this present world and administration. For the first time in history a focus and price has been put on the value of a persons well being. And life/death judgements are now beginning to be made by a central force of logic and cost benefits and not by the close individuals involved with that person.
    An example would be nice. And if you happen to post one, I will be able to trace it back before 2009

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    Obama does not value us Americans. He only values himself and his mirror. And this is a new factor in our country. It was also a factor in Japan and Germany during WWII. Citizens meant nothing and were expendable but the elite - defined by those thinking and acting and agreeing with the ruler - were priviledged and lived an elaborate life style.
    Your saying Obama does not value Americans? He fights for the elite?

    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    So, as an abstract example, the Army, Rangers, Marines, Special Forces will not leave a soldier behind. And sometimes this policy causes the death, harm to other soldiers in the persuit of retrieving him/her.

    Those of us that swore to defend The Constitution of The United States against all enemies, within our borders and outside of our borders are pretty much sure of which way we would follow that policy of not leaving any of our members behind.

    But what I'm reading between some of the lines here is that some of you would just say every man for himself and if you determined the cost to be past what you think it should be you would leave those in harms way behind.

    Right or Wrong?
    Always here

  7. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by energy star View Post
    An example would be nice. And if you happen to post one, I will be able to trace it back before 2009
    Your saying Obama does not value Americans? He fights for the elite?
    You can start by reading obamacare. Then you can move on to him sleeping while Marines and a counselor is being killed over a 7 hour period. Then you can move on to his family history, the hidden records of his birth, school participation, entrance applications, and even the real estate transaction on his Chicago home.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  8. #60
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    Oct 2002
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    Florida Panhandle
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    The cumulative excess of Social Security taxes and interest received over benefits paid out stood at $2.2 trillion. The Trust Fund is regarded by some as an accounting construct which holds no economic significance. Others argue that it has specific legal significance because the Treasury securities it holds are backed by the "full faith and credit" of the U.S. government, which has an obligation to repay its debt.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  9. #61
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    Aug 2004
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    Obama has no intention of ever paying back any debts, which is why he is the worst spendaholic in recorded history. He is planning on a global economic and cultural collapse that will leave him in command not only during martial law but until he dies. Meanwhile, once the world's monetary base is destroyed, it will be like declaring bankruptcy. You simply erase the ledger and start all over as though it never existed. Meanwhile, the medieval times will place the balance of the public into his hands in whatever form of slavery/ serfdom/ indentured service/ gulag/ eradication he wants. This is how you become the ruler of the world in spite of minor obstacles like Constitutions, guns and God. He can taste it now and is assembling his assault teams of crony politicians, generals, businessmen and fanatics to do his dirty work for him. Like most totalitarian dictators, he is surrounded by willing minions to do his killing. stealing, cheating, lying and false imprisoning for him. He is one of the most evil characters in the history of the world. One day he will reach a temp of over 800F in a lake of burning sulfur and spend the rest of eternity there. We'll see how much he laughs then.

  10. #62
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    Florida Panhandle
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    He's not the one in charge, he is only dancing to the tune of his handlers, like many others have done before him. This has been in the works for a long time, all the chess pieces have been put in play until the game is won by them or us, there will be no stalemate. We either understand the evil that is running this world and our country, and do something about it, or there will be no freedom anywhere on this world.

    These constant discussions and arguments in here and in other places are fruitless, and only play in to their hands, for they want to divide us. There is no two party system any longer, its them and us. They live in another world which has no relevency to the average working person, both sides are playing the same tune.

    Our goverment today is a criminal enterprise, if any individual or group would do what they have done, they would be prosecuted and in prison. The fact that they are not and still doing what they doing, shows that we longer have a constitutional goverment.

    Roy

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXlMFWmotSU
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  11. #63
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    Mar 2004
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    SE Michigan
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    18,060
    Could not agree more Roy!
    To put the world in order, we must first put the nation in order; to put the nation in order, we must put the family in order; to put the family in order, we must cultivate our personal life; and to cultivate our personal life, we must first set our hearts right.
    -- Confucius

  12. #64
    Join Date
    May 2006
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    Northern Virginia, Metro DC
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    52
    Quote Originally Posted by hearthman View Post
    Spoken like a true Marxist. The ultra rich already pay most of the taxes. How have franchises and Wal-Mart's bankrupted us? Last time I checked, Wally Mart has low prices which increases your buying power. How does a lack of factories bankrupt us? The reason there are few factories left is because big labor and governmental regulation have together pushed the cost of business over the edge so mfg. has moved offshore. Obamacare is what is screwing our elderly in their care. The death panels have already been emerging when they talk about limiting care based upon a person's utility vs. projected lifespan. That's eugenics. Look it up. You have been trained and indoctrinated to hate business and you don't even understand why.

    As for caring for our elderly tell us what's more "fair" or ethical:
    -warehouse them away from family where they are cared for like cattle vs. live at home with family and maybe hire some part time nursing help as needed?
    -encourage people to surrender their life savings and houses to pay for one of these human warehouses (nursing homes) or keep their assets and use them to help your own family pay for your waning years?
    -tell people not to save money because the government will take care of them in their late years even though MC/MCD and SS can not and will not be able to keep up with the cost of living and are going busted because the government stole from them or encourage saving and investing so you have a nest egg to live off of without government's hand on your wallet and telling you how to live?
    -raise some of your food, store some for a rainy day and make your home self sufficient for extended periods such as post-disasters or live like sheep in a slaughter pen waiting your turn?
    -be responsible for your own actions and live within your means or live immorally and irresponsibly then expect everyone else to pay for your life choices?


    Let me ask you a question our little commie: exactly how much is enough from the ultra rich, the very rich and the basically wealthy? I mean let's cut to the chase. You liberals constantly whine about needing to raise taxes for pay for social programs you invent to rule other people's lives and enslave them or you plain just want to punish success while you don't mind enjoying the fruits of their success such as i Phones, computers, cars, homes, grocery stores, clothes, healthcare, etc. So, if you were dictator for a day, just how much of the annual salary do you think the government should take from someone who grosses $1million/ yr.?
    Your response is predictable. Someone starts talking about taxes and how corporate america has ruined mainstreet and pretty soon someone is calling them a "commie". You probably voted for Romney too, even though he has been dismantling companies for years, ever since his daddy got him out of the draft. Ask yourself what this country has traded more "buying power". Ever try to find a subject matter expert at walmart? Shelves and shelves of cheap crap and people making minimum wage is what you find. Can you find a North Face jacket at walmart. Is there a butcher you can take a hind quarter to? Is there anybody who gives a crap about their ****ty job. You think disempowering employees and putting small business (real small business) out of business is worth the 20 bucks you save? Do you know why you are saving? Because Walmart opitimizes the meaning of funneling wealth to the top by using a business plan that destroys decent jobs in the community. It is in every corporations best interest to have a large pool of unemployed people around. You know why you are saving? Because of economies of scale. Something a corporation can do if they operate on a large enough scale. The catch is, everything depends on disempowerment and minimum wage.

    How much should the independently wealthy pay in taxes? A hell of a lot more than they pay now. You may not understand how the wealthy look at money. Its not how you and me look at money. They do not look at money in terms of what they get paid hourly. They do not get up in the morning and work 10-14 hours like the rest of us working stiffs. The look at what they already have and they devise ways to preserve it. They find ways to shift expenses and depreciation and blur the line between net and gross. They hire accountants and lawyers to figure out how to hide their money from the government. Because the government wants to "steal" their money. The governments wants to "steal" their money to build new schools and post offices and roads and bridges, etc. etc.
    "Be responsible?" "pay your own way?" What happens when you can't? What happens when your a kid? When your spouse bails and you have 4 kids? When your prescription drugs skyrocket because of big pharma? When you can't see as good? When your back fails, or your knees quit? Maybe, just maybe, if you are lucky, you get to work 30 good solid years before the rug is pulled out from under you. Then what? You might have managed to save enough over the years. Years of college tuition, sue happy neighbors, maintaining vehicles, homes, and the lives of your children.
    If we had bacon we could have bacon and eggs......if we had eggs.

  13. #65
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    Sep 2006
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    Losantiville
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    Quote Originally Posted by sayya2daupay View Post
    Your response is predictable. Someone starts talking about taxes and how corporate america has ruined mainstreet and pretty soon someone is calling them a "commie". You probably voted for Romney too, even though he has been dismantling companies for years, ever since his daddy got him out of the draft. Ask yourself what this country has traded more "buying power". Ever try to find a subject matter expert at walmart? Shelves and shelves of cheap crap and people making minimum wage is what you find. Can you find a North Face jacket at walmart. Is there a butcher you can take a hind quarter to? Is there anybody who gives a crap about their ****ty job. You think disempowering employees and putting small business (real small business) out of business is worth the 20 bucks you save? Do you know why you are saving? Because Walmart opitimizes the meaning of funneling wealth to the top by using a business plan that destroys decent jobs in the community. It is in every corporations best interest to have a large pool of unemployed people around. You know why you are saving? Because of economies of scale. Something a corporation can do if they operate on a large enough scale. The catch is, everything depends on disempowerment and minimum wage.

    How much should the independently wealthy pay in taxes? A hell of a lot more than they pay now. You may not understand how the wealthy look at money. Its not how you and me look at money. They do not look at money in terms of what they get paid hourly. They do not get up in the morning and work 10-14 hours like the rest of us working stiffs. The look at what they already have and they devise ways to preserve it. They find ways to shift expenses and depreciation and blur the line between net and gross. They hire accountants and lawyers to figure out how to hide their money from the government. Because the government wants to "steal" their money. The governments wants to "steal" their money to build new schools and post offices and roads and bridges, etc. etc.
    "Be responsible?" "pay your own way?" What happens when you can't? What happens when your a kid? When your spouse bails and you have 4 kids? When your prescription drugs skyrocket because of big pharma? When you can't see as good? When your back fails, or your knees quit? Maybe, just maybe, if you are lucky, you get to work 30 good solid years before the rug is pulled out from under you. Then what? You might have managed to save enough over the years. Years of college tuition, sue happy neighbors, maintaining vehicles, homes, and the lives of your children.
    One thing you must understand about your typical "modern" conservative is that their perfect solutions only work in their perfect world. Reality has a strong liberal bias, so don't expect these folks to step out of their bubble.

    Now get back to work! You say your back and knees are sore from years of manual labor - get used to it - if these righties get their way you will be toten that barge till you are ninety. And when you can't do it anymore just have the decency to die. Problem solved, simplicity in the eyes of a simpleton T Partier.

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