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  1. #1
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    Hmm 5H80 control head/unloader leak-failure and new one not working as expected

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    The original from 2000 started leaking out the vent 1/4 npt port after a 407c conversion. We had also replaced the valve plate gaskets.

    So I plugged the port and front seated the service valves.
    Ordered a new replacement from the local Transcold dealer.
    Swapped it out with little drama, drained 4 gal (of 7) the 68 POE, put wood shims to put tension outwardly on the shaft coupling. Put oil back with vacuum assist.
    On startup I found it was 60 lbs (of about 220) low, charged while turning head adjustment out enough to fully load.
    The problem is, after charging and letting it run fully loaded to get normal supply the suction down near 70, I got wide swings from 70 psi to as low as 25. Some "pulldowns" seemed more normal : 70 to 50 but in several tries I could not get a normal response. Most swings went down to the 20's. Oil-net pressure 55 or so. Trying to adjust the stem caused all or nothing (loading down to 25 or not loading at all: drifting up to 75 or 80 suction).
    I think the head is detective. Has the compound r22 spring too.

    Anyone been here ?

    Going back in morning
    Last edited by skwoodwiva2; 05-02-2017 at 01:03 AM.

  2. #2
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    No more edit....
    BTW 2 60's are working well. Converted to 407 weeks ago.
    Could the leak have corrupted the charge enough to cause these swings?
    Something wrong with valves? Was running fine before the leak.
    Defective (not detective lol, damn auto correct) control head...
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    Last edited by skwoodwiva2; 05-02-2017 at 01:40 AM.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by skwoodwiva2 View Post
    No more edit....
    BTW 2 60's are working well. Converted to 407 weeks ago.
    Could the leak have corrupted the charge enough to cause these swings?
    Something wrong with valves? Was running fine before the leak.
    Defective (not detective lol, damn auto correct) control head...
    First of all, the leak was caused by the refrigerant changeout which degraded the o-ring that seals the unloader bellows to the housing. I am pointing this out because the other compressors WILL LEAK eventually and in the future you DO NOT have to replace the entire end bell assembly (which must have cost ALOT). You can order an 05HG660014 replacement bellows assembly which comes with the o-ring, or you can order a 5F40 721 control valve assembly which includes the bellows and a new unloader valve as well. These parts can be installed in the field and it wouldn't take that much more time then it did for you to replace the endbell. As far as the wide unloader swings that you are experiencing, I believe that it is because you have a fitting in the 1/4 mpt hole above the adjustment nut. That hole must remain open to the atmosphere or the bellows inside will eventually work into a vacuum. When that happens unloading becomes erratic and you can't adjust it by turning the adjustment control. Remove the fitting and you should be fine.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by remanworld View Post
    First of all, the leak was caused by the refrigerant changeout which degraded the o-ring that seals the unloader bellows to the housing. I am pointing this out because the other compressors WILL LEAK eventually and in the future you DO NOT have to replace the entire end bell assembly (which must have cost ALOT). You can order an 05HG660014 replacement bellows assembly which comes with the o-ring, or you can order a 5F40 721 control valve assembly which includes the bellows and a new unloader valve as well. These parts can be installed in the field and it wouldn't take that much more time then it did for you to replace the endbell. As far as the wide unloader swings that you are experiencing, I believe that it is because you have a fitting in the 1/4 mpt hole above the adjustment nut. That hole must remain open to the atmosphere or the bellows inside will eventually work into a vacuum. When that happens unloading becomes erratic and you can't adjust it by turning the adjustment control. Remove the fitting and you should be fine.
    The plug was added only after the leak was discovered and only while down. I know this must be open.

    So it is common to get this oring outta there? When speaking to the service Manager at the same dealer years ago he never mentioned this oring. Spoke specifically about POE changeover.

    Anyone else change these orings as part of conversion?
    Last edited by skwoodwiva2; 05-02-2017 at 08:28 AM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by skwoodwiva2 View Post
    The plug was added only after the leak was discovered and only while down. I know this must be open.

    So it is common to get this oring outta there? When speaking to the service Manager at the same dealer years ago he never mentioned this oring. Spoke specifically about POE changeover.

    Anyone else change these orings as part of conversion?
    Sorry, I didn't "get the picture" before now. You might have a defective unloader end bell assembly, but I really hate to blame brand new parts so easily. One thing that you might want to consider is that you have the wrong viscosity oil in the compressor. Carrier specifies 150 mineral oil for the 5H80, but you indicated that you have 68 POE in the compressor which I think is like a 300 mineral oil. It's possible that the heavier oil is causing the control valve to malfunction. Did you run the compressor for an extended period of time? My thinking is that if you run the compressor for several hours then you will be certain that all of the oil is warmed to operating temperature and it might thin out to the extent that it will work better with the small orifices in the control valve. As far as changing the o-rings goes, any time that you change from R22 to an alternative refrigerant you should expect leaks from all the rubber seals in the compressor and system. Things such as schrader cores and ball valves will leak because any rubber seal that was exposed to R22 will shrink and "fall apart" when exposed to the new refrigerant. I would be VERY worried about the shaft seals in your 5H compressors. We once changed 12 seals in a facility that converted their 5H compressors because every one started leaking. They lost hundreds of lbs of refrigerant and it was because the rubber seal gland basically "broke down" and turned into a floppy mess. You should advise your customer ASAP before you have a big problem. Let me know if you need anything else.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by remanworld View Post
    Sorry, I didn't "get the picture" before now. You might have a defective unloader end bell assembly, but I really hate to blame brand new parts so easily. One thing that you might want to consider is that you have the wrong viscosity oil in the compressor. Carrier specifies 150 mineral oil for the 5H80, but you indicated that you have 68 POE in the compressor which I think is like a 300 mineral oil. It's possible that the heavier oil is causing the control valve to malfunction. Did you run the compressor for an extended period of time? My thinking is that if you run the compressor for several hours then you will be certain that all of the oil is warmed to operating temperature and it might thin out to the extent that it will work better with the small orifices in the control valve. As far as changing the o-rings goes, any time that you change from R22 to an alternative refrigerant you should expect leaks from all the rubber seals in the compressor and system. Things such as schrader cores and ball valves will leak because any rubber seal that was exposed to R22 will shrink and "fall apart" when exposed to the new refrigerant. I would be VERY worried about the shaft seals in your 5H compressors. We once changed 12 seals in a facility that converted their 5H compressors because every one started leaking. They lost hundreds of lbs of refrigerant and it was because the rubber seal gland basically "broke down" and turned into a floppy mess. You should advise your customer ASAP before you have a big problem. Let me know if you need anything else.
    Fogot to mention the seal jobs on all these we do.
    Ball valves are all teflon as are all sporlan parts as well as most all others.
    I just did not realize this (rubber?) Oring was present.
    The other 60s work fine on 68.
    Warming up, the CCH was on for most of the surgery as oil was still present. Sump was plenty warm too.
    Yes
    Any way oring debris could have gotten in compr passages?
    I Still think its bad, going back today. I shut it down.

    This new design oring?
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    Doubtful,
    All of the oil first goes through the oil pick up screen in the sump and that should trap any o ring particles. It sounds like you may have a bad unloader control valve. If you get a chance look at the diagram of the bellows assembly and you will see that on one side it seals with an o ring to the casting and on the other side it seals with a square cut ring (quad ring) to the control vale assembly. I would change both of those rings any time you do a refrigerant conversion.

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  9. #8
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    If you lost 60lbs of 407C, that's almost half the charge. I wouldn't be surprised if you have the same problem after that repair and end up having to remove the entire charge and put virgin 407 back in.

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  11. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 71CHOPS View Post
    If you lost 60lbs of 407C, that's almost half the charge. I wouldn't be surprised if you have the same problem after that repair and end up having to remove the entire charge and put virgin 407 back in.
    225total
    So 1/4
    I was wondering too...
    I have a spare head that has a new adjustment gizmo where the amplifier was doing similarly.
    I may put the adjustment assembly in the original haed today as a easy test. If it works I will leave it a return the head as defective.

  12. #10
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    There was a very fine .75 " or so washer with the new head
    I could not find a place for this....

  13. #11
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    Dealer mgr says it is the control strainer....

  14. #12
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    It turned or rather turded out to be a pinched suction valve ring on the 1 non unloading head.
    Had a spare.

    I had used my usual trick of not removing the exhaust valves using various aids to keep the ring in place dropping the plate in place. I lost the time.

    Someone, on a very full and long day, shared that there was a way of using some light material to hold the ring in place. Like Styrofoam or the like. That would disintegrate harmlessly on startup.
    I know there are clips and even diy paper rings or Scotch tape to pull the ring down while tape is on top of ring and on cylinder wall, very narrow strips....
    Wait wait wait, that's it! I remembered as I composed this Question! (Emily Litellia moment!
    NEVER MIND.) Lol.


    Edit is this done by anybody?

  15. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by skwoodwiva2 View Post
    It turned or rather turded out to be a pinched suction valve ring on the 1 non unloading head.
    Had a spare.

    I had used my usual trick of not removing the exhaust valves using various aids to keep the ring in place dropping the plate in place. I lost the time.

    Someone, on a very full and long day, shared that there was a way of using some light material to hold the ring in place. Like Styrofoam or the like. That would disintegrate harmlessly on startup.
    I know there are clips and even diy paper rings or Scotch tape to pull the ring down while tape is on top of ring and on cylinder wall, very narrow strips....
    Wait wait wait, that's it! I remembered as I composed this Question! (Emily Litellia moment!
    NEVER MIND.) Lol.


    Edit is this done by anybody?
    I would like to understand your installation method because for the 40 some years that we have been remanufacturing compressors the only way that we have ever installed valve plates on the 5 line compressors was to first install the suction springs, then the suction valve ring held held in place with brass or steel clips, then bolt the plate on. After the plate is in place we bolt the discharge cage on. If you assemble it as a unit, doesn't it leave some foreign substance in the cylinder? Also, don't you check the discharge valve guide for wear? You can only do that with the valve guide (cage) off of the compressor. The discharge valve ring will wear into the guide which allows the valve ring to move around. If that happens the discharge valve will have a high to low side leak because the valve ring can't seat correctly on the valve plate. Glad that you got it fixed.

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