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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    796

    Honeywell SymmetrE System

    I had to go to a job yesterday and look at a Honeywell SymmetrE system. It doesn't seem to be the most user friendly system, but I managed to get some of the issues fixed. One of the problems I am having is on one of the AHUs. The customer had everything on this particular unit in override. I released all of the overrides and noticed that when I clicked on each of the points from the graphics that the automatic read value appeared to be normal, but in the bottom left of the screen it was some very strange values. The graphics also showed these strange values on them. Like for instance it could show 80 degrees supply air temperature in the automatic field on the point, but in the bottom left of the point screen (where you can choose auto or manual) and the graphic it would just stay at 43 degrees. I even tried to switch it to manual at 80 degrees and the graphic would never change and eventually the point would revert back to 43 degrees in the bottom left of the points screen in the manual or automatic mode. I was told there are a lot of different layers in a SymmetrE system. What kind of things can I do to troubleshoot this problem? Each AHU has a XL50 controller on it that is assigned to a XL5000 Point Server. Thanks for any help on this!
    J. King

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    RI
    Posts
    29
    We have the Honeywell EBI system which is basically the same as Symmetre but used for HVAC and installed by the branches only. We have the exact same problem. The current value on the graphic and current value in the command box will match each other but the automatic value will be different from the other two. I am anxious to see the answer.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    15
    Depending on how the system is setup (the older versions), the XL5000 points PV may only be programmed in Quickbuilder. With the SP displayed on the screen (not attached to anything).
    In Display builder you should be able to see if the display is looking at the SP, PV or OP.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Grand Junction Colorado
    Posts
    11
    I'm so sorry to say this but I was ready to drop Honeywell after my experience with symmetry then they brought out WEBs thank God

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Jurupa Valley, CA
    Posts
    1,781
    Quote Originally Posted by Paton View Post
    I'm so sorry to say this but I was ready to drop Honeywell after my experience with symmetry then they brought out WEBs thank God
    EBI/SymmetrE, as a front end, is a VERY good platform, and arguably, it is about the only system I've used that can deal with a system of unlimited size, with basically infinite trending and alarming capabilities, with it's API's, be made to work with any system in the world, and with it's scripting be able to actually do anything with the data. The unfortunate aspect of this is that it is a nightmare to set up and maintain. The worse aspect is that not even Honeywell's branches really know what it can do, or how to make it work optimally. The good thing though, is the help files are very extensive, so someone who really wanted to, and had enough programming ability, could master the system on their own... I just wish the branch guys would try to do the same.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth\Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    1,699
    I dealt with SymmetrE for years before we went to Honeywell Webs. EBI has it's place as a total solution as far as HVAC, Security and Fire Alarms, but beyond that it leaves a lot to be desired. As you say CraziFuzzy it is a nightmare to setup and maintain. As far as trending and alarming it can't do anything that most other systems can do. And after having dealt with SymmetrE and Webs I would venture to say it really can't even compare to Webs, not even close.
    Go Rangers!

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Grand Junction Colorado
    Posts
    11
    Quote Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy View Post
    EBI/SymmetrE, as a front end, is a VERY good platform, and arguably, it is about the only system I've used that can deal with a system of unlimited size, with basically infinite trending and alarming capabilities, with it's API's, be made to work with any system in the world, and with it's scripting be able to actually do anything with the data. The unfortunate aspect of this is that it is a nightmare to set up and maintain. The worse aspect is that not even Honeywell's branches really know what it can do, or how to make it work optimally. The good thing though, is the help files are very extensive, so someone who really wanted to, and had enough programming ability, could master the system on their own... I just wish the branch guys would try to do the same.
    Dear crazifuzzy,
    your observation of symmetry is so correct, if you understand how to set it up and maintain it it's a very good platform like you indicated especially for large campuses or facilities. In my world, I may have one or two buildings on the campus and webs is so much more manageable and understandable in the aspects of setting it up. Especially the different networks BACnet Lon modbus etc. as an automation contractor set up time of webs is much more preferable.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,330
    I too cut my teeth on CARE 5/7 and SymmetrE R300.2 and R310. Database synchronizations with CARE, on large campus networks - think dozens of ilon600s with multiple point servers - was just a nightmare.

    Ask any of the guys above how often they touched a SymmetrE system on a Friday.
    AX on the other hand... I'll convert any XL10 system on a Friday afternoon, with plenty of time to get to happy hour.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth\Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    1,699
    Quote Originally Posted by digo View Post
    I too cut my teeth on CARE 5/7 and SymmetrE R300.2 and R310. Database synchronizations with CARE, on large campus networks - think dozens of ilon600s with multiple point servers - was just a nightmare.

    Ask any of the guys above how often they touched a SymmetrE system on a Friday.
    AX on the other hand... I'll convert any XL10 system on a Friday afternoon, with plenty of time to get to happy hour.
    Amen Brother!
    Go Rangers!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Fort Worth\Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    1,699
    Quote Originally Posted by digo View Post
    I too cut my teeth on CARE 5/7 and SymmetrE R300.2 and R310. Database synchronizations with CARE, on large campus networks - think dozens of ilon600s with multiple point servers - was just a nightmare.

    Ask any of the guys above how often they touched a SymmetrE system on a Friday.
    AX on the other hand... I'll convert any XL10 system on a Friday afternoon, with plenty of time to get to happy hour.
    It's funny you say that, because we had a standing rule that we did not work on SymmetrE on Fridays.
    Go Rangers!

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    1,330
    Our rule was to not start work on SymmetrE on Fridays. You could easily start on a Wednesday and still have a 30% chance of still being there on a Friday... no joke.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    209
    SymmetrE and EBI are Hard work yes.( there you go, keeps us employed then or they could get anyone to sort it out)

    Apprentice and rody,
    Lets try to fathom whats going on here.
    If you click once on one of your troublesome points, look at the info bar just below the backwards and forwards buttons at the very top of the screen.
    You should see something like (EXCEL5000 <pointname>.PointValue =43DegF) or something like that. you may also see .PV instead of PointValue, but essentially they are the same thing.

    Now if you double click the point and get the point information up, the second or third tab along to the right will have some boxes for trending updates, are the values very large in these boxes especially in the COS box. I know they are supposed to be for trend logs, but when I have decreased these values the data on the graphics have seemed to update with smaller increments/decrements as well.
    A second thought is that your points have been updating too frequently and the server has put them into 'scanning' mode. I dont know of a way to find this out from memory.
    One more thing, If you restart the PC with the Excel5000 server on it do the points return with more accurate values?
    If so, then maybe they are being scanned albeit very slowly.

    One other thing (not of much use but maybe usefull to know) if you are using HMI-Web Display builder to create your graphics, you can assign the graphic to display the automatic value by assigning (AutoValue) to the point datafield. If you are new to SymmetrE then dont worry about this just yet. You might be able to do this in the older version Display Builder as well, but i've never tried that.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Columbus, Ohio
    Posts
    796
    Quote Originally Posted by Keith D View Post
    SymmetrE and EBI are Hard work yes.( there you go, keeps us employed then or they could get anyone to sort it out)

    Apprentice and rody,
    Lets try to fathom whats going on here.
    If you click once on one of your troublesome points, look at the info bar just below the backwards and forwards buttons at the very top of the screen.
    You should see something like (EXCEL5000 <pointname>.PointValue =43DegF) or something like that. you may also see .PV instead of PointValue, but essentially they are the same thing.

    Now if you double click the point and get the point information up, the second or third tab along to the right will have some boxes for trending updates, are the values very large in these boxes especially in the COS box. I know they are supposed to be for trend logs, but when I have decreased these values the data on the graphics have seemed to update with smaller increments/decrements as well.
    A second thought is that your points have been updating too frequently and the server has put them into 'scanning' mode. I dont know of a way to find this out from memory.
    One more thing, If you restart the PC with the Excel5000 server on it do the points return with more accurate values?
    If so, then maybe they are being scanned albeit very slowly.

    One other thing (not of much use but maybe usefull to know) if you are using HMI-Web Display builder to create your graphics, you can assign the graphic to display the automatic value by assigning (AutoValue) to the point datafield. If you are new to SymmetrE then dont worry about this just yet. You might be able to do this in the older version Display Builder as well, but i've never tried that.
    Keith - Thanks for the reply these are all things I will check out. This customer hasn't been very happy with the SymmetrE system since they have put it in. So my company has given them a price to install a new Honeywell WEBs JACE, but if I get called out there again to look at these problems I will take a look at these items. You mentioned something about scanning mode. Is there away to speed up/slow down the scanning mode?

    Thanks for your input!
    J. King

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