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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Columbus,Ohio
    Posts
    21

    R-22 Alteratives Pro's and Con any help

    I have several Clients that are asking about changing Units over from R-22 and I've had allot of mixed message's about this please provide some input

  2. #2
    Tell them a brand new 410a unit works fantastic

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Columbus,Ohio
    Posts
    21
    Clients are just out of the warrantey period and still have life in the Units they are very good about replacement when Units reach the age of 10 years old but with the price of R-22 going up the are seeking out others ways and asking before they take the leap. I have heard allot of mix feelings and thought I would ask the mass's on here

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Columbus,Ohio
    Posts
    21
    I can see we are still at the starting point and I'm getting same stuff from other Vendors out there and also from supply house's anyone has a Dif opnion.

    The following is a little bit of information concerning refrigerant replacement for R-22.

    There are a number of so called drop in replacements for R-22 on the market.
    The following is a sample list: Dupont M099 which is actually R-438A, ICOR NU22 which is actually R-417A and ICOR NU22B which is R-422B.
    You also have R-422A,R-422C, and R-422D.

    The upside to retrofitting is: Cost of replacement refrigerants are presently about the cost of R-22. Retrofitting may help put off replacement of equipment until the customer’s budget will allow.

    The downside to retrofitting: All replacement refrigerants at present experience a capacity loss which may be 7 to 30 % if installed correctly.

    It is possible that leaks will occur at elastomeric seals after replacement. These seal include Schrader cores, solenoid valves , ball valves, receiver gaskets ,etc.
    Leaks are not a given but the older the system the greater the chance for leaks.

    Systems that have present oil return problems such as long line length or oil logging in the evaporator due to air flow or ambient operating conditions may have to remove 10 to 25% of the existing mineral oil and replace the removed oil with the same amount of polyol ester oil. If this needs to be done extreme care should be taken when installing the polyol ester oil as it is extremely hygroscopic.

    SUMMARY

    There is no true drop In refrigerant replacement on the market that meets the exact design of R-22. All replacements have potential issues even though the customer might find these issues are slight.

    The contractor must replace driers and install driers that are compatible with the replacement being used.

    The newer the existing system is the less chance of problems and more cost effective retrofitting will be as R-22 will continue to rise.

    The older the system the greater the chance there will be a problem such as leaks , oil return, etc.

    The refrigerant replacements are HFC which depending on the one used is a Near Azeotrope and or Zeotrope which must be charged in a liquid form.

    After a system is put into service it may require adjustments to expansion valve to maintain proper superheat .

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    330
    Not a 'drop-in' but, Dupont says 407C has a range of performance of 98–106% compared to R22; the cost is currently about of R22.

    Then again, nothing is a 'drop-in' if you have to take any further steps to make it work.

    Dictionary defines drop-in as: adjective: requiring only insertion to be ready for use.

    If you can remove 10-25% of the MO, why not remove ALL of it and fully recharge with POE?

  6. #6
    In all honesty, the biggest favor you can do for them is steer them to a new 410 unit. Its just a matter of spending some money now to spend less down the line. 407c is the best we have come across as a drop in replacement, but at best you are getting 90% efficiency of the BTUs the system is rated at. I don't know about Ohio, but that doesn't cut it down here when the needle gets past 100 degrees.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    1,384
    You shouldn't need to add refrigerant unless of course there is a leak. If they are fairly new as you say, and just needs a leak repair, i would give the replacements a try if that is what the owner wants. You can do a search on here. There has been much talk already about this.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    105
    I was at a class recently and met two different guys (both business owners) that swear by MO99. One guy uses it with new dry R22 condensers or after completely evacuating a system. The other guy actually just drops it right in on top of R22 already in a system (I know this is wrong, but he claims to have never had a problem doing it).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3,821
    Quote Originally Posted by cajunhvac75 View Post
    I was at a class recently and met two different guys (both business owners) that swear by MO99. One guy uses it with new dry R22 condensers or after completely evacuating a system. The other guy actually just drops it right in on top of R22 already in a system (I know this is wrong, but he claims to have never had a problem doing it).
    I've heard similar things about NU22, including "topping off" with it. I am planning to use it the next dry unit I install. As far as mixing, I'm going to wait and see for awhile.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    French Settlement, Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    245
    The last dry condensor I did I asked the supplier about a alternate refrigerant and was told warranty was only valid with R22.

  11. #11
    Im only an apprentice but the qualified guy's Im working with have be been dropping in MO99 with no problems.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Natchitoches, Louisiana, United States
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by cajunhvac75 View Post
    I was at a class recently and met two different guys (both business owners) that swear by MO99. One guy uses it with new dry R22 condensers or after completely evacuating a system. The other guy actually just drops it right in on top of R22 already in a system (I know this is wrong, but he claims to have never had a problem doing it).
    Why would someone sell a new dry r22 system charged with mo99, which voids the warranty and lowers efficiency, when they could just sell a new 410a system with full warranty?

    Must have had a lot of old stock???

  13. #13
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    33,398
    A few dry units approve of 407 in them.

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