17M shaftseal oring or quad ring?
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  1. #1

    17M shaftseal oring or quad ring?

    Im a second generation York mechanic so i have caribbean blue running through my veins. However, I've got 6 2200 ton carrier 17m chillers under contract and i have to say these chillers are built like sherman tanks. I've had some seal failures though after about 10,000 run hours. I've been told by a local Carrier tech to use the quad ring instead of the oring and to put a thin bead of locktite AV on the shaft shoulder where the contact ring meets. Is anyone else using this method or is this guy blowing smoke rings?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
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    Dixiana, AL
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    2,609
    AV doesn't come in beads like 515 - it's a liquid adhesive. The strongest they make. It's very high strength (I was told aviation grade, thus the "AV"), comes in two types that I'm aware of - AV086 & AVV087. If you use it, don't plan on getting the contact ring back off without some real effort. Could work great. How much do you trust him?

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by klove View Post
    AV doesn't come in beads like 515 - it's a liquid adhesive. The strongest they make. It's very high strength (I was told aviation grade, thus the "AV"), comes in two types that I'm aware of - AV086 & AVV087. If you use it, don't plan on getting the contact ring back off without some real effort. Could work great. How much do you trust him?
    I've used AV before in various other applications just not this one. He has some creditability but in my mind having to use it is trying to compensate for a design flaw or poor installation. Cleanliness and proper install is 90% of a seal lasting. Just curious if this is a factory recommendation or field engineering.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Upstate NY
    Posts
    55
    I know of some carrier techs who have used the AV grade loctite with success on some 17Ms and Ps. However, to Klove's point, I was the one who had to remove the contact rings on a couple of those machines, WHAT A PAIN!!! I replaced the assemblies without loctite and didn't have any problems...

    I agree with you BTW about the 17Ms... Carrier made some robust machinery back in the day...

    As to the use of an o-ring or quad ring, that will depend on the shaft... Google "service bulletin C9910". The SB gives a breakdown of shaft design changes and helps determine which ring you will need...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Windsor ON Canada
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    402
    Carrier manufactured this series of chiller with at least 2 seal configurations that I am aware of. The earlier version had NO "O" ring between the shaft and contact ring. Carrier instructions mention the use of Loctite beween the contact ring and shaft shoulder to make a seal. I believe it was Loctite 290 or 292. (it was green and was a weeping type of liquid that they also used for tube sheets).
    The second seal type had the O ring (or quad as your friend suggested). Have never seen the quad ring, so I can't comment on that. I can say that the O ring sealed very well and I have never needed to use any Loctite with this style seal. I have one of each type compressor on one site and have been servicing for 30 years. These compressor run 24-7 and take all kinds of crap thru them and never miss a beat. They are rebuilt every 2 years, when production warrants. If you are getting 10,000 hours on one seal, I would consider that great performance.

  6. #6
    Appreciate the info and help. I agree that the loctite would make the contact ring that much harder to get off and is probably unecessary.

    HW... I was told i should be getting closer to 16 to 20,0000 hours on this seal. I agree with you. Per the customer contract I have to perform a complete bearing and oil pump inspection on every annual shutdown. These chillers serve comfort cooling and never so much as hickup all year long. The inspection intervals seem a little excessive to me also. Do any of you guys perform bearingand oil pump drive inspections with this frequency?

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Windsor ON Canada
    Posts
    402
    My chillers are built up with remote evap (6 floors up) and are not packaged units. They are used for process (they condense Hydrofluoric acid, nasty s$it). They are 1970 vintage. The evaps have been retubed at least twice and all the crud left from tube pulling is sitting in the bottom of the evap. This crud tends to make its way back to the compressor and into the oil and hence the seal.

    We do a bearing inspection every 2 years (alternating between compressors), both journals and thrust along with oil pump inspection, hot alignment etc., etc., etc.. We also do the seal at this time. In my opinion you don't inspect a seal and reuse old parts. As a minimum carbons, contact ring, contact sleeve and diaphragm are always replaced. If inspection reveals wear to other parts they to are replaced.
    Downtime costs are prohibitive, 5 grand to do a seal is peanuts. I worked for Carrier factory service for 10 years and all our process machines were done either anually or every 2 years, too much money involved. We never had a 17 series for comfort cooling. Don't know who told you that 16000 hours is normal seal life. Too many variables to make that statement. I would say that your compressors are getting a great deal of TLC and you are getting good work. Just my two cents.


    Quote Originally Posted by excessivepurger View Post
    Appreciate the info and help. I agree that the loctite would make the contact ring that much harder to get off and is probably unecessary.

    HW... I was told i should be getting closer to 16 to 20,0000 hours on this seal. I agree with you. Per the customer contract I have to perform a complete bearing and oil pump inspection on every annual shutdown. These chillers serve comfort cooling and never so much as hickup all year long. The inspection intervals seem a little excessive to me also. Do any of you guys perform bearingand oil pump drive inspections with this frequency?

  8. #8
    Thank you for the help...appreciate you takin the time to give me some experienced insight.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    12
    I agree with Mr.chiller man about not reusing seal parts .But 17,s were used for comfort cooling in large buildings. (Toronto)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    604
    Worked on some in To, but Chemical Valley was my best. Shaft alignment is key to seal life. Quad ring vs. O ring vs nothing, seen it all. Loctite was used at one time. I've assembled countless shaft seals on 17 series machines. I get 24/7 times 3 to 5 years out of them, no problem.
    Now, what are you considering a problem, they were never a perfect seal.
    There is a static seal and a running seal. Static is never perfect and never ever reuse sealing parts, springs etc., you may get away with.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    604
    The best two I ever worked on were at LCBO wharehouse on Front street. Every nut and bolt were chromed.
    Origianal pictures on site with Willis wearing his suit and fedora.
    Also some along Bay street.
    HW chillerman, howdy. I always remember the Compressor in a Basket project at HF plant.
    Hahaha Lucky I knew your good work habits.

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