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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
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    12
    not sure where i might start new thread is there no section for nonpro,s? sorry

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    24,995
    Quote Originally Posted by billyjoey View Post
    not sure where i might start new thread is there no section for nonpro,s? sorry
    That wasn't directed at you.

    Read the post again. It was directed at an unauthorized, non AOP approved poster.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,056
    The codes generally require all combustion appliances be tested and listed by a recognized testing lab to the appropriate national standards. A rating plate indicates the listing mark, make, model, serial #, fuel type, input BTU rating, minimum inlet gas pressure, manifold gas pressure, clearances to combustibles, and possibly some other technical data used to test and adjust the unit. Without positive proof from the mfr., how can you or the AHJ be sure this unit was installed and operating within the mfr.s specs. and listed instructions? If the home was recently purchased, you should have had a home inspection, which should have noted this information. If it was not present at that time, the H.I. should have called for the replacement of the appliance before you took possession.

    Often missing ratings plates are an indication of equipment that was either stolen or retrieved from a dumpster even though it was defective. That's one reason to smash and totally ruin any appliances discarded and cut out the rating plate.

    What if this appliance is left in operation then something goes wrong, which is traced back to information normally available on a rating plate that reasonably would have averted the condition such as correct fuel set up? It's a liability issue.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    12
    I haven,t recently aquired the home.The meter was leaking and relaced with a new unit. At this time they wanted to see the furnace.It was then red tagged, 1st for no rating plate and second for cleaning and further inspection.I have inquired with a couple of hvac contractors who say they can address the maintenance requirements but with no rating plate then the gas co.wouldnt authorize startup.....If I can get through he next couple of months with this unit,the heating season will be mostly over and I can then see what my options are as too a new hvac system....thanks Kirk

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    12
    Hearthman: I wanted to thank you for your clear and detailed explanation regarding rating and safety data.I had this furnace and sheetmetal system installed in Jan 91.At that time the local gas utility sold and serviced gas appliances (now discontinued}......I had a number of their approved contractors give me estimates ,all of which I thought were too high.$$$$$$ avg. with lowest being $$$$$$....(this is 1991$)............. I later found a guy who was a laid off sheetmetal installer, he could do all the duct work but was not a furnace guy,however he knew someone who was an apprentice HVAC and or pipe fitter.So one did the duct work and the other the furnace.....It all cost me less than half the quoted rates(the original system was a coal fired octopus furnace later converted to oil)................But I have been thinking even before you posted that maybe this furnace was stollen hence the id. plate missing.The furnace has performed without inncedent for 22 yrs now If I can go 2 1/2 more months with it than I will be happy. (is there someway of getting the ratings?) thanks
    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 01-20-2013 at 05:23 PM. Reason: Pricing

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Richmond, VA
    Posts
    2,697
    Quote Originally Posted by billyjoey View Post
    Hearthman: I wanted to thank you for your clear and detailed explanation regarding rating and safety data.I had this furnace and sheetmetal system installed in Jan 91.At that time the local gas utility sold and serviced gas appliances (now discontinued}......I had a number of their approved contractors give me estimates ,all of which I thought were too high.$$$$$$ avg. with lowest being $$$$$$....(this is 1991$)............. I later found a guy who was a laid off sheetmetal installer, he could do all the duct work but was not a furnace guy,however he knew someone who was an apprentice HVAC and or pipe fitter.So one did the duct work and the other the furnace.....It all cost me less than half the quoted rates(the original system was a coal fired octopus furnace later converted to oil)................But I have been thinking even before you posted that maybe this furnace was stollen hence the id. plate missing.The furnace has performed without inncedent for 22 yrs now If I can go 2 1/2 more months with it than I will be happy. (is there someway of getting the ratings?) thanks
    Sounds like you got a great deal. 22 years on a stolen furnace....installed at 1/2 the price of legitiment contractor....That old furnace does not owe you anything.
    It's not the Brand with the fewest repairs-It's all in the install!!! Attention to detail and using the best materials!

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    12
    Sounds like it, I always thought the sticker beside the transformer was the rating plate..............do you know where there might be a reference # somewhere else on the unit?

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,056
    ANSI Standards dictate the rating plate must be "readily accessible" which means you can get to it without tools. Look inside the compartment and out. If you don't see it, look for the silhouette where it was.
    You could send pics to the mfr. for a general identification but there is no telling what it has been set up to or with what controls. I routinely find oil boilers with new gas valves on boilers designed for manufactured/ city gas, which was made from coal gasification and contained a very large percentage of carbon monoxide in its makeup. Each gas burns quite uniquely and several things may need to be changed, set or tweaked to get it to burn correctly. A mfr. keeps records of what valve, burner, orifices, and controls they used in the original design. That way if it ever is implicated in a court case, they can prove it was modified from the original design. The mfr. may get you close but would be fools to tell you exactly what it is set up for without bench testing it in a lab. A tech can measure the manifold gas pressure and gauge the burner orifice but he is not in a position to comment on the burner or air shutter settings for instance.

    A gas utility's Tariff with the State is what empowers them to enter homes and Red Tag and shut off appliances or whole buildings.

    I could make the argument that based upon the International Fire Code, this appliance should be shut down and replaced as without that rating plate, one could argue, as your utility has, that it is "unsafe". Without the baseline info. how is a tech supposed to know what to expect when he inspects it or what to test or tweak it to?

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    12
    Thanks for your reply: From what you have stated the furnace may have been operating in an unsafe condition for over 22 yrs.(or it may be operating according to specs?).They could have given a 45 day warning under the present conditions, after which non compliance results in gas shut off...The gas co. here has an ombudsman,which few members of public know about.Perhaps I should contact them since I believe the tech who shut down the furnace may have gone a step further than necessary.Resulting in no heat at the coldest time of the year.....any thought? thks Kirk

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,056
    I think you have a good case for a 45 day reprieve. Since it has been in continuous operation under their watch for all that time, it kinda' makes them look bad, too. I'd send them a certified letter return receipt requested demanding the gas be turned back on because without it your house is uninhabitable and you will be forced out. Since there was no sudden or accidental incident resulting in damages there is no insurance claim. Moreover, without heat, your pipes may freeze so I'd state in that letter you will hold them responsible for all collateral damages.

    I think if a qualified technician inspects it and performs combustion analysis and the chimney passes a Level II inspection there would be no reasonable reason to lock it out then under "emergency" conditions. Preventing taking occupancy upon sale or transfer is one thing but having been in occupancy for 22yrs is something else.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    12
    The entity I am dealing with here is "Enbridge Gas Distribution".I say this because they keep reminding everyone that they are a natural gas distributor,(not seller) nor do they sell or service natural gas equipment.Enbridge bought out the previous gas company here and sold off any service or rental contracts they had.In my opinion they just wanted the quaranteed return on investment and rate increases they are guaranteed by the govt..............Basically they are a very hard entity to deal with and the govt doesnt seem to care...........................But aside from that a homeowner can perform any regulated function on there own property in this jurisdiction (Ontario,Ca.) as long as an inspection is carried out by someone qualified to approve the work(ie. electrical,gas,building, code etc.)..............................So I am wondering if I couldnt carry out the work myself and then have a teck come and check it out,but not put his name on it?

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,512
    if you ever had the unit serviced they should have put the model and serial number on the invoice
    We really need change now

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