Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 234567891011 LastLast
Results 105 to 117 of 135
  1. #105
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,819
    Quote Originally Posted by netsalt View Post
    I agree with some - disagree with some. I just don't see the all powerful Godzilla that some see. Pretty much the same as all politicians in recent history, nothing special just a man, not a commie or boogie man, just a man (or woman).
    I hope you are right but by the time we find out it will be too late for all of us. What gets me is why you and other can't or won't ask enough questions to prove to yourself that he is just a nothing special man.

    Don't you even see that this money he has spent and will continue to spend is real money? And that his history so far is how to by-pass the Constitution and other rights. And you just don't question.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  2. #106
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,819
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    But that is the crux of it. A different mission that you think he should take. But a good many people do not like where your past route has taken you and want to take a new one. I do feel he is gambling with your future but unlike you I think he wants the best for your country and wants all men to share in it. I also do not think it is attainable the way he is going about it but that is not the point. The thing is you think him a demon trying to bring down your country and I think he is just incompetent and has no clue on how things really work.
    Some of the most incompetent looking fools have taken over their world in our planets history and has caused massive destruction and much loss of life.

    One persons incompetence is anothers dictatorship.

    The voters of this nation have spoken..and spoken loud and clear, that is true. Now go meet as many of those voters as you can, see how they live, see how they make decisions, see what their values are and determine for yourself if these are the people who best represent the life and liberties that this country, and yours, was founded on.

    It's a losing battle to me as the majority of the new generation has lost touch with reality. If you make a certain amount a month it's certainly OK to spend much more that that. Many think milk comes from Safeway.

    Then there are those of my generation of which I know many. They have lived their lives under a system of source and supply and they fear free enterprise where people can chose and make their own destiny based on risk vs. reward.

    They want everyone to be under some sort of directing and commanding structure just as they have been under for all their working lives. As a small but pointed example, I have one friend who served under the Federal Government and is now retired. He is going through the roof that his COLA (cost of living allowance) or something like that is not up to all the other years since he's been retired.

    I mentioned that all of us have to sacrifice during these times and he pretty much spit out that thought saying he deserved his retirement raise and could care less about the others who were losing their jobs or businesses. And he is not the exception. He represents the rule.

    And that is because he is a Federal Employee and he is guaranteed what he wants, he says.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  3. #107
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    Some of the most incompetent looking fools have taken over their world in our planets history and has caused massive destruction and much loss of life.

    One persons incompetence is anothers dictatorship.

    The voters of this nation have spoken..and spoken loud and clear, that is true. Now go meet as many of those voters as you can, see how they live, see how they make decisions, see what their values are and determine for yourself if these are the people who best represent the life and liberties that this country, and yours, was founded on.

    It's a losing battle to me as the majority of the new generation has lost touch with reality. If you make a certain amount a month it's certainly OK to spend much more that that. Many think milk comes from Safeway.

    Then there are those of my generation of which I know many. They have lived their lives under a system of source and supply and they fear free enterprise where people can chose and make their own destiny based on risk vs. reward.

    They want everyone to be under some sort of directing and commanding structure just as they have been under for all their working lives. As a small but pointed example, I have one friend who served under the Federal Government and is now retired. He is going through the roof that his COLA (cost of living allowance) or something like that is not up to all the other years since he's been retired.

    I mentioned that all of us have to sacrifice during these times and he pretty much spit out that thought saying he deserved his retirement raise and could care less about the others who were losing their jobs or businesses. And he is not the exception. He represents the rule.

    And that is because he is a Federal Employee and he is guaranteed what he wants, he says.
    But still your founding fathers wanted the people to decide which route they want to take and not some elite bunch to decide how the others should live because they know better. It just so happens you are becoming one of the minority elite.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  4. #108
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
    Posts
    17,089
    Quote Originally Posted by DeltaT View Post
    And that his history so far is how to by-pass the Constitution and other rights.
    We seem to be hearing this particular refrain on a continual basis yet no one appears to be able to state categorically or even nominally what specific rights and sections of the Constitution are being bypassed.

    An explanation of how all this bypassig is being accomplished is also absent.

  5. #109
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    3,366
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    But that is the crux of it. A different mission that you think he should take. But a good many people do not like where your past route has taken you and want to take a new one. I do feel he is gambling with your future but unlike you I think he wants the best for your country and wants all men to share in it. I also do not think it is attainable the way he is going about it but that is not the point. The thing is you think him a demon trying to bring down your country and I think he is just incompetent and has no clue on how things really work.
    I have to agree with you for the most part. He might have some other not so good motives mixed in but I don't think he's trying to bring down the country. I think he's just a poor president. I don't fear him nearly as much as I fear the voting public that elected him. No one ever brought up that I can remember any other president's family protection & compared it to their own family before in a pro-gun add & there were plenty of anti-gun legislation presidents.
    Gary
    -----------
    http://www.oceanhvac.com
    An engineer designs what he would never work on.
    A technician works on what he would never design.

  6. #110
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Woburn, MA
    Posts
    6,917
    Quote Originally Posted by geerair View Post
    We seem to be hearing this particular refrain on a continual basis yet no one appears to be able to state categorically or even nominally what specific rights and sections of the Constitution are being bypassed.

    An explanation of how all this bypassig is being accomplished is also absent.
    As I alluded to in the Lincoln topic, two different administrations have used drones to kill US citizens under the guise of The War On Terror.

    To me and many others, being a US citizen means the RIGHT to due process under Constitutional provision regardless of crimes. Since the Constitutional clauses are contained in both the 5th and 14th amendments, how can this been seen as not a right? Since, of course, the 5th is part of the Bill of Rights.

    What constitutional authority did either administration have to act as judge, jury and executioner of US citizens?
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  7. #111
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
    Posts
    17,089
    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    As I alluded to in the Lincoln topic, two different administrations have used drones to kill US citizens under the guise of The War On Terror.

    To me and many others, being a US citizen means the RIGHT to due process under Constitutional provision regardless of crimes. Since the Constitutional clauses are contained in both the 5th and 14th amendments, how can this been seen as not a right? Since, of course, the 5th is part of the Bill of Rights.

    What constitutional authority did either administration have to act as judge, jury and executioner of US citizens?
    I also find the use of drones in this manner troubling but I assume the legal authorization comes from Wartime provisions and military law.

    I would like to see a case brought before the High Nine on this issue as this seems to be one of those grey areas where technology has outstripped case law.

    However, given the current makeup of the Supreme Court, I would bet they would find no conflict with Constitutional rights.

  8. #112
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Woburn, MA
    Posts
    6,917
    Quote Originally Posted by geerair View Post
    I also find the use of drones in this manner troubling but I assume the legal authorization comes from Wartime provisions and military law.
    Could be, however I have found no such language in the war powers act. Further, what happens to traitors is covered under existing law, and one must be CONVICTED. Aaron Burr, for example, had a trial.

    I would like to see a case brought before the High Nine on this issue as this seems to be one of those grey areas where technology has outstripped case law.

    However, given the current makeup of the Supreme Court, I would bet they would find no conflict with Constitutional rights.
    I certainly agree. The larger point was that ANY president can have a similar charge made against them. We've been going round and round on this since Lincoln. Certainly Supreme Court decisions made over time appear to have backed Lincoln's actions in a general sense as well.

    We'll have this discussion for a long time to come methinks.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  9. #113
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Woburn, MA
    Posts
    6,917
    As an addendum to my previous post, I'd also like to point out that it is the opinon of several constitutional scholars that the definition of executive power is intentionally left "fuzzy", if you will.

    That's because there is one fear; if we define it too closely, we may find that definition hamstrung a president and prevented him or her from preventing something really bad happening.

    We can't forsee everything, so that is perhaps wise. When we argue over what has happened, then the Supreme Court decides AFTER THE FACT whether or not the action was proper.
    "Social networking" is an oxymoron.

  10. #114
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
    Posts
    17,089
    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    Could be, however I have found no such language in the war powers act. Further, what happens to traitors is covered under existing law, and one must be CONVICTED. Aaron Burr, for example, had a trial.
    I don't see the two situations as analogous. In our modern case, the person declared himself a traitor and operated as an ally of a foreign enemy during a state of war.



    I certainly agree. The larger point was that ANY president can have a similar charge made against them. We've been going round and round on this since Lincoln. Certainly Supreme Court decisions made over time appear to have backed Lincoln's actions in a general sense as well.

    We'll have this discussion for a long time to come methinks.
    Me too.

  11. #115
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    I'm an old cowhand from the Rio Grande
    Posts
    17,089
    Quote Originally Posted by scrogdog View Post
    As an addendum to my previous post, I'd also like to point out that it is the opinon of several constitutional scholars that the definition of executive power is intentionally left "fuzzy", if you will.

    That's because there is one fear; if we define it too closely, we may find that definition hamstrung a president and prevented him or her from preventing something really bad happening.

    We can't forsee everything, so that is perhaps wise. When we argue over what has happened, then the Supreme Court decides AFTER THE FACT whether or not the action was proper.
    Lincoln once said (condensed version) that the neither the Constitution nor its authors could foresee every situation, every evolution of society or every change in judicial theory and therefore the Constitution requires continual interpretation.

  12. #116
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    7,819
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    But still your founding fathers wanted the people to decide which route they want to take and not some elite bunch to decide how the others should live because they know better. It just so happens you are becoming one of the minority elite.
    But you sound like you are describing is a democracy. We do not have a democracy. We have a repulubic and that is very different from a democracy.

    In a democracy the people get to decide and they get to decide pretty much on the spot so even basic fundenments can change rapidly.

    In a republic our founding fathers wanted to eliminate the sitituations of which you speak. So they designed a guidance system containing numberous checks and balances with some over-rides here in there for safety measures. And even with those over-rides checks and balances and consequences were included to maintain the intergrity of the original instructions that the US operates under.

    Now how it done under those original instructions is where the fun begins. But, overall, systems are in place in our three bodies of our Federal, state and local governments to keep us headed at least in the right directions, even if some don't thing it's the right way to get there.

    Our nation, a replubic, is based on "the rule of law". And that law is to followed. And the interpertation is continually challenged by people who want to get around that law or that interpit the law to benefit themself.

    So our check and balances kick in. And all of this takes time because justice is slow and that's the way it should be.

    obama has the same directions as all other presidents but in his mission to restructure the US to meet his belief system he is riding that fine gray line of pushing the rule of law out and replacing it with his system on kingship, for lack of a better term.

    His frequent use of his power to use the Presidents executive order is one recent example. And now he is using inour face. So you should ask "where are the checks & balances that are in our republic"? They still exist but are not going to be used because our system of law under our republic has been poluted by the lack of and williness of the people who are the ones who are suppose to bring into action those checks and balances.

    One small but major example, which has not been challenged if you notice, is the lack of the Senate to pass a balance budget for the past 4 years. That is a requirement of our "rule of law" in order to maintain our countries stability and integrity. But it's not been done and why have the American citizens not confronted their elected leaders to that fact including bringing in the consequences of breaking our laws?

    Bottom line is the "new" type citizens that obama has now engaged in a force equal to a large army, large enough to vote him back in and large enough to quiet the rest of the American citizens, well, our system still exists in words only but not in action.

    So we are headed in a direction away from our design. And that process has been in process for years with the final and natural result of putting someone in office and allowing people in our Congress that only follow their feelings, desires and group policies in place of following the Constitution and The Bill of Rights.

    We no longer have a form of Government that is for the people and by the people. They exist for themselves. And now the fox is not only in the hen house but he's moved into the hen house with permission of 51% of the hens. Now that is the definition of stupid.
    "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers it can bribe the public with the public's own money.
    - Alexis de Toqueville, 1835

  13. #117
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Losantiville
    Posts
    1,866
    What we are seeing is the end of the era of Reaganism and the beginning of something different. The Reagan ideal is "Liberty" and "government you could drown in a bathtub". This new thing is different, it seems to be a more "Liberty and Justice for all". Will it work? Time will tell. All I know is the groundwork laid down by ol rotten Ronnie created the biggest disparity in wealth this country has seen since the robber baron age so I'm willing to do a wait and see.

Page 9 of 11 FirstFirst ... 234567891011 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event