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Thread: Painful kitchen cooling dilemma

  1. #1
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    Painful kitchen cooling dilemma

    I have a cooling dilemma that I was wondering if anyone here could offer some insights or suggestions for. My kitchen is a ruthless hotbox in the summer months due to its west-facing exposure and having plenty of glass (picture large floor-to-ceiling windows on the West wall and two Velux skylights on a 45 degrees slanted ceiling). Naturally, during sunny days in the winter it serves as a passive solar heat collector. So I am considering the following approach to deal with the heat load during summer time and capturing all generated solar heat during winter. I should also probably mention that I have pretty wide open floor layout, the existing cabinets are gutted, and I’ll have unrestricted access to the walls.
    1. Currently in my 130-140 sq. ft kitchen there is no return line. Obviously code, architects and installers were more concerned
    with cooking fumes than the unbearable summer heat. I remember reading somewhere that with every foot in height the temperature rises approximately 0.5 to 0.75 degrees, so in my case delta T between the floor and highest ceiling point can potentially reach up 10 degrees or even higher. Obviously there are several relatively simple and straight forward approaches to resolve those issues and I am listing the simple ones first:


    a. Replace all glass on the wall with more efficient material; (very expensive and barely effective)
    b. Replace Skylight regular glass with nanogel filled glass (new technology used by NASA to provide heat shield on spaceships); (very expensive and extremely effective)
    c. Install blinds / shutters, either manual or solar controlled o existing skylights (I am not really sure about potential benefit).
    d. Replacing hot halogen bulbs with much cooler LEDs should provide slight measurable relief.

    2. Beyond the low-hanging fruit, let’s consider some more involved solutions:

    a. Installation of inline 150-200 CFM exhaust fan (Soler or Fanteech) between the sloped ceiling rafters with exit @ the outside wall rather than roof (I do not want to deal with creating an opening in wooden shingle roof) with 2 purposes in mind.
    i. Provide adequate cooking fumes exhaust outside throughout entire year.
    ii. Provide some relief during hot summer by pulling hot air from under the ceiling and throwing it outside. I do painfully realize that this may have questionable benefits as outside hot air (granted a little bit cooler than the one collected from under the ceiling) will enter the house but assuming that A/C will be on at that time this air should mix with much cooler one so overall effect of installing inline fan maybe not at all w/o merits. This is just my gut and I can’t offer anything more of substance at this time.

    b. Bring the return line to the basement to main return line and install intake grill as high as possible, however I also read somewhere that I need serious calculations in order just to extend that return as balance of return lines vs. supply will change. So, the question is do I have to bring another supply line to the kitchen (I can’t see how it will hurt) or should I close somewhere on the same floor return register? What would be the most sensible approach to address this issue?
    c. I have currently 2 dedicated Carrier / Bryant 20 year old AC/heating systems, 1 per floor, with cooling capacity of 3 tons each. I am not planning to replace them with anything else right now as I am tinkering with idea of advanced and efficient geothermal installation.
    d. Instead of messing around with the return line, how about installing an 11000 BTU dedicated mini split ductless A/C? This seems the least desirable approach but is definitely the most efficient one. I dislike this solution because maintenance is high and electricity costs are only on the rise.

    TIA to everybody who can shed some light for me

  2. #2
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    A mini spit in the kitchen might help and could be used only when the heat load in the kitchen were high. It could be left off the rest of the time. A exhaust fan can be used but the air removed from the conditioned space will be replaced by outside which will add to the load on the house. We replaced all our kitchen lights with LEDs and they do put out less heat but you may have bigger problems than lighting loads.
    You might also talk to your HVAC contractor about adding another supply air drop into the kitchen area.

  3. #3
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    The minsplit is the way to go IMHO since the cooling load is so much different than the rest of the living space.

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    A mini-split it a good choice. Many of them are very efficient, even approaching the efficiency of geothermal systems. It will give you independent control of the kitchen temperature. Why do you say maintenance is high? All you need to do is periodically clean the filters.
    I like Mitsubishi. I put one in my building two years ago and have been thrilled with it. Our customers like them, too.

  5. #5
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    Mini-split will definetely address my cooling issue but it won't help me to harvest passive solar heat in a winter time

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    Re. blinds or shutters - I suggest awnings. Blinds will not keep the sunlight from reaching the glass which is where the passive solar effect comes from. An awning shades the window but does not block the indirect natural light. We used to have glass sliding door on the east side of our house which contributed to overheating the room in the summer and the light was fading our table and flooring. We installed an adjustable awning which we would set to shade the glass. The room temperature was lowered immediately but we could still enjoy natural light in the room.

  7. #7
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    Thanks for the suggestion but they are already in place. I installed retractable awnings outside 10 years ago.

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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProperVenting View Post
    Mini-split will definetely address my cooling issue but it won't help me to harvest passive solar heat in a winter time
    How so?

    Your already getting passive solar heat in the winter, how would that change ?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LKJoel View Post
    How so?

    Your already getting passive solar heat in the winter, how would that change ?
    I am getting it in a winter in a kitchen area only, that is the reason I want to bring return to the kitchen (doesn't have it currently) and run fan only to distribute it pver the whole 1-st floor

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    Quote Originally Posted by LKJoel View Post
    How so?

    Your already getting passive solar heat in the winter, how would that change ?
    I am getting it in a winter in a kitchen area only, that is the reason I want to bring return to the kitchen (doesn't have it currently) and run fan only to distribute it pver the whole 1-st floor

  12. #12
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    Been there, done that. Not 3M but something else, also 10 years ago

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProperVenting View Post
    I am getting it in a winter in a kitchen area only, that is the reason I want to bring return to the kitchen (doesn't have it currently) and run fan only to distribute it pver the whole 1-st floor
    Sounds like a lot of work, for what may turn out to be a fairly minimal gain

    I like the mini split idea

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by LKJoel View Post
    Sounds like a lot of work, for what may turn out to be a fairly minimal gain

    I like the mini split idea
    The real challenge is to quantify that "fairly minimal gain" as it (new return) will work for all seasons. So how do we know in what savings it will result eventually for the whole year. Clearly, it's a difficult question to answer because it's more theoretical in nature and therefore intuitively we tend to resort to obvious "patch" solutions as I consider mini split as such. The real challenge is to find proper solution and compare them using some kind of science rather than gut. As far as I am concerned it is not the issue of money but rather what is RIGHT and what is WRONG

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProperVenting View Post
    The real challenge is to quantify that "fairly minimal gain" as it (new return) will work for all seasons. So how do we know in what savings it will result eventually for the whole year. Clearly, it's a difficult question to answer because it's more theoretical in nature and therefore intuitively we tend to resort to obvious "patch" solutions as I consider mini split as such. The real challenge is to find proper solution and compare them using some kind of science rather than gut. As far as I am concerned it is not the issue of money but rather what is RIGHT and what is WRONG
    I wouldn't view a mini split as a "patch solution". You have a room with an abnormal summer heat load, a mini split is the most effective and most efficient way to deal with it (aside from shading options)

    Plus, in the winter time, you could run the fan only on the MS to mix the air in the kitchen, then run your furnace fan to mix the air in the house (depending on the installation of course)

    You don't necessarily need a kitchen return to distribute the heat through the house, if you push air into a room, it has to come out somewhere..... How effective it will be, will be determined by the room configuration of course, but simple additions like a ceiling fan, or the fan on a mini split head used to mix the kitchen air, then using the existing duct work to spread it across the house may do a comparable if not better job

    I like your thought process, but you may be over complicating things

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by LKJoel View Post
    Plus, in the winter time, you could run the fan only on the MS to mix the air in the kitchen, then run your furnace fan to mix the air in the house (depending on the installation of course)

    You don't necessarily need a kitchen return to distribute the heat through the house, if you push air into a room, it has to come out somewhere..... How effective it will be, will be determined by the room configuration of course, but simple additions like a ceiling fan, or the fan on a mini split head used to mix the kitchen air, then using the existing duct work to spread it across the house may do a comparable if not better job
    Wow!! It never even occurred to me as I was totally focused on a MS as a cooling unit and not an axillary fan during winter time. I guess, the only question is how far I can push this air because the closest return is at the almost floor level and air has to travel quite a bit to reach it. Thanks for your kind words.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProperVenting View Post
    I have a cooling dilemma that I was wondering if anyone here could offer some insights or suggestions for. My kitchen is a ruthless hotbox in the summer months due to its west-facing exposure and having plenty of glass (picture large floor-to-ceiling windows on the West wall and two Velux skylights on a 45 degrees slanted ceiling). Naturally, during sunny days in the winter it serves as a passive solar heat collector. So I am considering the following approach to deal with the heat load during summer time and capturing all generated solar heat during winter. I should also probably mention that I have pretty wide open floor layout, the existing cabinets are gutted, and I’ll have unrestricted access to the walls.
    1. Currently in my 130-140 sq. ft kitchen there is no return line. Obviously code, architects and installers were more concerned
    with cooking fumes than the unbearable summer heat. I remember reading somewhere that with every foot in height the temperature rises approximately 0.5 to 0.75 degrees, so in my case delta T between the floor and highest ceiling point can potentially reach up 10 degrees or even higher. Obviously there are several relatively simple and straight forward approaches to resolve those issues and I am listing the simple ones first:


    a. Replace all glass on the wall with more efficient material; (very expensive and barely effective)
    b. Replace Skylight regular glass with nanogel filled glass (new technology used by NASA to provide heat shield on spaceships); (very expensive and extremely effective)
    c. Install blinds / shutters, either manual or solar controlled o existing skylights (I am not really sure about potential benefit).
    d. Replacing hot halogen bulbs with much cooler LEDs should provide slight measurable relief.

    2. Beyond the low-hanging fruit, let’s consider some more involved solutions:

    a. Installation of inline 150-200 CFM exhaust fan (Soler or Fanteech) between the sloped ceiling rafters with exit @ the outside wall rather than roof (I do not want to deal with creating an opening in wooden shingle roof) with 2 purposes in mind.
    i. Provide adequate cooking fumes exhaust outside throughout entire year.
    ii. Provide some relief during hot summer by pulling hot air from under the ceiling and throwing it outside. I do painfully realize that this may have questionable benefits as outside hot air (granted a little bit cooler than the one collected from under the ceiling) will enter the house but assuming that A/C will be on at that time this air should mix with much cooler one so overall effect of installing inline fan maybe not at all w/o merits. This is just my gut and I can’t offer anything more of substance at this time.

    b. Bring the return line to the basement to main return line and install intake grill as high as possible, however I also read somewhere that I need serious calculations in order just to extend that return as balance of return lines vs. supply will change. So, the question is do I have to bring another supply line to the kitchen (I can’t see how it will hurt) or should I close somewhere on the same floor return register? What would be the most sensible approach to address this issue?
    c. I have currently 2 dedicated Carrier / Bryant 20 year old AC/heating systems, 1 per floor, with cooling capacity of 3 tons each. I am not planning to replace them with anything else right now as I am tinkering with idea of advanced and efficient geothermal installation.
    d. Instead of messing around with the return line, how about installing an 11000 BTU dedicated mini split ductless A/C? This seems the least desirable approach but is definitely the most efficient one. I dislike this solution because maintenance is high and electricity costs are only on the rise.

    TIA to everybody who can shed some light for me
    I would suggest you add supply to the area. It is not that big of a kitchen so you could probably add another lead and this would be a more economical option. As far as wanting to use the collected heat in the winter I would ask if the Kitchen is cold in the winter and if this heat is needed. The additional supply would correct it if it is cold and if it isn't then it is a non-issue, really. A ceiling fan would be, I believe, a reasonable option, as it could be used for the purpose of dispersing cooking fumes as well as be useful on days when you do not need to run the A/C for cooling purposes.

    You would need to examine the duct to see if this is possible, but usually taking another lead out of a trunk does not change the airflow in a significantly noticable way.

    Hope that helps,

    God bless.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.T.Ranger View Post
    I would suggest you add supply to the area. It is not that big of a kitchen so you could probably add another lead and this would be a more economical option. As far as wanting to use the collected heat in the winter I would ask if the Kitchen is cold in the winter and if this heat is needed. The additional supply would correct it if it is cold and if it isn't then it is a non-issue, really. A ceiling fan would be, I believe, a reasonable option, as it could be used for the purpose of dispersing cooking fumes as well as be useful on days when you do not need to run the A/C for cooling purposes.

    You would need to examine the duct to see if this is possible, but usually taking another lead out of a trunk does not change the airflow in a significantly noticable way.

    Hope that helps,

    God bless.

    Thanks for the vote of confidence but so far we are in overwhelming minority

  19. #19
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    Ok, I gave in and after careful consideration I decided to install in my kitchen cheap Soleus KFTHP09 mini split and at the same time bring return line. Originally, I was planning to install 1100-1200 CFM sidewall exhaust fan but putting in cheap mini split seems like a better option.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProperVenting View Post
    Ok, I gave in and after careful consideration I decided to install in my kitchen cheap Soleus KFTHP09 mini split and at the same time bring return line. Originally, I was planning to install 1100-1200 CFM sidewall exhaust fan but putting in cheap mini split seems like a better option.
    I guess the idea of installing cheap Soleus MS is out of the window, somebody suggested Mitsubishi and it appears to be great choice

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