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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montgomery, NY
    Posts
    228

    Help we are freezing our as*s off.

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Size:  48.9 KBTwo Slant fin 300000 BTU boilers in 15000 sq ft condo complex. Approx heat load of 360000 BTU. 2 " main loop. All feed with 1" copper. Xtank shoved behind boiler with no way to change. Sticker said "Proudly installed by Dun-rite Plumbing & Heating". Had all I could do to keep from throwing up. It was 3 degrees this morning. Necked a 2" circ pump down to 1" 60' away. You should hear the velocity noise. Could not get the building over 53 degrees. They got what they paid for. The HOA don't understand "But we just put them in last year" There really is no cure for stupid.
    WE LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE,
    ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,034
    so what did you do to fix it?
    Parts Changer Extraordinaire
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Have tools and gauges, will travel.

    RIDGID|YELLOW JACKET|UEI|TESTO|STANLEY|CPS|VETO| KLEIN|MILWAUKEE|MASTERCRAFT|

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montgomery, NY
    Posts
    228

    Nothing yet

    Quote Originally Posted by blitz View Post
    so what did you do to fix it?
    Nothing yet praying for warmer weather. HOA has to make some decisions.
    WE LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE,
    ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    St. Louis
    Posts
    3,484
    So what's the biggest problem here...the undersized equipment or the piping/distance?

    Non-boiler person here - looks shiny and new enough to work

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Altmar, New York, United States
    Posts
    4,791
    Quote Originally Posted by hurtinhvac View Post
    So what's the biggest problem here...the undersized equipment or the piping/distance?

    Non-boiler person here - looks shiny and new enough to work
    i would have to say the 1" pipe. the boilers should have atleasy kept the [lace a little warmer. probably not at t-stat satisfaction.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Montgomery, NY
    Posts
    228

    Piping Calculatons

    Quick Calculations for Hydronic Heating Systems
    Maximum Flow Rates for Closed System, Hydronic Heating
    Copper GPM Iron Pipe GPM
    " 1.5 " 2
    " 4 " 4
    1" 8 1" 8
    1 " 14 1 " 16
    1 " 22 1 " 24
    2" 44 2" 48

    Flow rate calculations @ 20 degrees F drop = 1 GPM for each 10,000 BTUH
    What does the above mean? Assume you have a 300,000 BTUH load on a closed hydronic system with two zones. First zone is 130,000 BTUH, and the second is a 170, 000 BTUH. You can determine from the Flow rate calculation that you will need 13 GPM for the first zone and 17 GPM for the second zone. Based on the flow capacity in the pipe sizing chart, you can determine that you will need a 2 copper or iron pipe connected to the boiler with a manifold to 1 ? copper/ iron pipe for zone one, and 1 ? for zone two.
    IE: 300,000 BTUH (Total system) = 30 GPM = 2 copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    130,000 BTUH (zone 1) = 13 GPM = 1 ? copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    170,000 BTUH (zone 2) = 17 GPM = 1 ? copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH

    **Note: These calculations work well on normal residential system piping. The above do not take into consideration excessive piping restrictions and/or excessive friction losses due to unusual/long piping lengths. Exceptional system piping must be determined using piping loss/flow calculations.
    WE LIVE IN THE LAND OF THE FREE,
    ONLY BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Upper Michigan
    Posts
    3,589
    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey View Post
    Quick Calculations for Hydronic Heating Systems
    Maximum Flow Rates for Closed System, Hydronic Heating
    Copper GPM Iron Pipe GPM
    ½" 1.5 ½" 2
    ¾" 4 ¾" 4
    1" 8 1" 8
    1 ¼" 14 1 ¼" 16
    1 ½" 22 1 ½" 24
    2" 44 2" 48

    Flow rate calculations @ 20 degrees F drop = 1 GPM for each 10,000 BTUH
    What does the above mean? Assume you have a 300,000 BTUH load on a closed hydronic system with two zones. First zone is 130,000 BTUH, and the second is a 170, 000 BTUH. You can determine from the Flow rate calculation that you will need 13 GPM for the first zone and 17 GPM for the second zone. Based on the flow capacity in the pipe sizing chart, you can determine that you will need a 2” copper or iron pipe connected to the boiler with a manifold to 1 ?” copper/ iron pipe for zone one, and 1 ?” for zone two.
    IE: 300,000 BTUH (Total system) = 30 GPM = 2” copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    130,000 BTUH (zone 1) = 13 GPM = 1 ?” copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    170,000 BTUH (zone 2) = 17 GPM = 1 ?” copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH

    **Note: These calculations work well on normal residential system piping. The above do not take into consideration excessive piping restrictions and/or excessive friction losses due to unusual/long piping lengths. Exceptional system piping must be determined using piping loss/flow calculations.
    Thanks this is going straight into my saved notes

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    4,718
    Quote Originally Posted by Chauncey View Post
    Quick Calculations for Hydronic Heating Systems
    Maximum Flow Rates for Closed System, Hydronic Heating
    Copper GPM Iron Pipe GPM
    " 1.5 " 2
    " 4 " 4
    1" 8 1" 8
    1 " 14 1 " 16
    1 " 22 1 " 24
    2" 44 2" 48

    Flow rate calculations @ 20 degrees F drop = 1 GPM for each 10,000 BTUH
    What does the above mean? Assume you have a 300,000 BTUH load on a closed hydronic system with two zones. First zone is 130,000 BTUH, and the second is a 170, 000 BTUH. You can determine from the Flow rate calculation that you will need 13 GPM for the first zone and 17 GPM for the second zone. Based on the flow capacity in the pipe sizing chart, you can determine that you will need a 2 copper or iron pipe connected to the boiler with a manifold to 1 ? copper/ iron pipe for zone one, and 1 ? for zone two.
    IE: 300,000 BTUH (Total system) = 30 GPM = 2 copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    130,000 BTUH (zone 1) = 13 GPM = 1 1/4 copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH
    170,000 BTUH (zone 2) = 17 GPM = 1 1/2 copper/iron pipe required
    10,000 BTUH

    **Note: These calculations work well on normal residential system piping. The above do not take into consideration excessive piping restrictions and/or excessive friction losses due to unusual/long piping lengths. Exceptional system piping must be determined using piping loss/flow calculations.
    added red fractions because I think this was a test or typo.
    The Food Stamp Program, administered by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, is proud to be distributing the greatest amount of free meals and stamps EVER.
    Meanwhile, the National Park Service, administered by the U.S. Department of the Interior, asks us to "Please Do Not Feed the Animals". Their stated reason for this policy "... the animals become dependent on handouts and will not learn to take care of themselves."
    from an excerpt by Paul Jacob in Sun City, AZ

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    202
    *Note: These calculations work well on normal residential system piping. The above do not take into consideration excessive piping restrictions and/or excessive friction losses due to unusual/long piping lengths. Exceptional system piping must be determined using piping loss/flow calculations.

    That being said... without calculation of vertical rises, lengths...and friction losses.... You would most likely have to go even higher than that...

    Reminds me when I installed my sprinkler system.... the neighbor hired a "Professional" to install his and has hardly any flow to the heads in the front of the house.... (our houses and lots are almost identical) I did some research and sized the piping accordingly... for correct GPM... length and friction loss etc...and used only a 1 1/2 hp pump and have excellent flow throughout all 3 zones.... He has a 2 hp pump and has very poor flow and has blown 2 seals on the pump already and is beside himself.....waters the grass by hand.....

    All I can remember when I was installing my system while his "professional" was installing his....was his "professional" saying I was over-killing on the size of the piping and that it wasn't necessary....
    It's all about heat transfer...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Beautiful, Philadelphia, the City of Brotherly Love!
    Posts
    1,096
    I got a better one; 27 unit apartment building largest zone with the most heat loss contains 23 feet of 3/4 inch fin tube baseboard, water temperature of 180 degrees. Now let's do some calculating here, 23 feet at approximately 600 btu per foot of heat output (probably less as probably the fins are bent up and dirty on all apartments. Either way say 13,800 btu per apartment as worst case scenario (although checked one other middle floor unit had 16 feet).
    13,800 x 27 units =372,600 btu add a very safe fudge factor of 30% piping loss 484,380 btu.

    Guess what size boiler I found in the mechanical room? How about 2.5 million boiler with a gas oil powerflame burner! With a 24 inch flue. My brother and I are still looking for the rest of the building this thing must be hooked to, but since the place is a stand alone and originally a hotel in the 1920's this is all there is.

    Did I mention the supply line is 3 inch copper and the return is 2.5 inch copper? I told the customer we are going to save him at least 100% of his monthly heating bill. I think I might even guarantee this in writing.

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