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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    West Monroe, LA
    Posts
    1,537
    Quote Originally Posted by manu.miami View Post
    Believe it or not - I have had 10 estimates and everyone keep saying the 400 sq ft to 450 sq ft thumb rules. And most people looked at the home and everyone kept saying I will need 5T atleast to cool the home. One contractor measured the duct on the top of the air handler and based on the chart - he said it is large enough of 2000cfm at the attic but where the duct connects to air handler it is around 1500 to 1600 cfm. But to be sure he will have to remove the air handler and measure it too.

    So I have filtered it down to both Options :

    Trane
    Air Conditioner 4TTB4061E - XB14 Series
    Air Handler TAM7A0C60 - Hyperion XL Series
    Warranty : 10 year for Parts & Compressor and 1 Year Labor only


    VS

    Bryant
    Air Conditioner 127ANA060 - Preferred Series
    Air Handler FV4CNB006
    Programmable Thermidistat for dehumidification
    Warranty : 10 year for Parts & Compressor and 1 Year Labor only

    Both Unit Cost the same - which Unit would be better in terms of quality & noise level.
    Well I belive you. Here in my area no other company in town does load cal. on homes. They just go by what is there or 500 square foot per ton. Their are no requirments for permits or rebates to do one. While me on the other hand, I belive in a proper sized system but a lot of that is due to past energy rating days. At the end of the day it is the right thing to do but in your case no one will do they are using a rule of thumb for 50 years ago which is sad.

    Anyways the Trane would be the best system out of the 2 you narrowed it down to. The XB 14 in a 061 model has a 2 stage/step compressor in it and with the variable speed air handler you have a good system just hope that it works good since no one has ran a load on the home. At least it is 2 stage while still could be oversized? At least it will be able to stage is wired up properly.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    It's so hard to get some people to understand that a system running constantly and just barely keeping up or even falling behind slightly on the 3 or 4 hottest or coldest days of hte season for a couple hours, is a GOOD thing. I'm not sure my wife totally understood, until I downsized by almost 1/2 what was install in our upstairs and I made a believer out of her. A system that's silent, even temepratures, not drafty and controls humidity well and even cost a few $$$ less, is truely a wonderful thing.

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    54
    This is Miami we are talking about , from June to November 95plus its always hot im in shorts right now with 80 f outside and the competition is fierce. Im focusing on commercial accounts from now on anyway i understand all points made. Also dont get dark till 8:45 in the summer. If u lived here u would understand

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    2,753
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    It's so hard to get some people to understand that a system running constantly and just barely keeping up or even falling behind slightly on the 3 or 4 hottest or coldest days of hte season for a couple hours, is a GOOD thing. I'm not sure my wife totally understood, until I downsized by almost 1/2 what was install in our upstairs and I made a believer out of her. A system that's silent, even temepratures, not drafty and controls humidity well and even cost a few $$$ less, is truely a wonderful thing.
    Makes sense. ALso, like most houses in N.O., very bad insulation and sealing in 100 plus yr old houses makes it near impossible to really size anything properly like so many here on hvac talk say a whole house evaluation and energy audit is more important than anything. Once that is properly diagnosed and corrected then you can get a proper sized ac system, without that you are throwing money to the electric company and the ac repairman.
    My name is TooCoolforschool and I am a chronic over charger.

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,031
    Quote Originally Posted by motoguy128 View Post
    It's so hard to get some people to understand that a system running constantly and just barely keeping up or even falling behind slightly on the 3 or 4 hottest or coldest days of the season for a couple hours, is a GOOD thing.

    I'm not sure my wife totally understood, until I downsized by almost 1/2 what was install in our upstairs and I made a believer out of her. A system that's silent, even temperatures, not drafty and controls humidity well and even costs a few $$$ less, is truly a wonderful thing.
    A men to that, motoguy!

    Let us look at summer designs at Miami FL compared to Madison WI: Miami is 90 & 77-WB for a 13F drop for 56% RH, with a 111F Heat Index; Madison WI is 88 with 73-WB a 15 drop for 49% RH with a 102F Heat Index.

    However, we get real high Heat Indexes: National Weather Service Weather Forecast Office, Temperatures during the July, 1995 heat wave pushed into the 100 to 105 range across South-central and Southeast Wisconsin, while muggy air with dewpoints in the upper 70s to lower 80s added to the discomfort. The combination of heat and humidity resulted in heat index values peaking in the 120 to 128-F range; probably the highest values in Wisconsin recorded history.

    The duration of the heat wave and the stuffy overnight conditions amplified its affects on humans, since it became difficult to recover at night from the daytime affects of the heat.

    Heat waves in Florida typically occur during periods of drought, low humidity and mostly clear skies.

    In June 1985, a severe heat wave hit the state with temperatures of 106˚F in Ocala and 105˚F in Lakeland.
    Another prominent heat wave struck in 2011 when Tallahassee hit an all-time record high temperature of 105 degrees on June 15.
    The highest heat index temperature reported in Florida in 2010 was 124˚F in Apalachicola on July 31.

    Therefore, Miami's extremes are no worse then mine in SW WI.
    In my 1937 farm home I have a little Hal-Ton window unit cooling 1300-sf in as high as a 124-F Heat Index, it kept it within 78-F & around 55% RH.

    Therefore, it would seem to me something is way wrong if you can only keep people comfortable at 400-sf per ton!

    Got to get off power company is going to work on Transformer!

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,031
    Quote Originally Posted by udarrell View Post
    A men to that, motoguy!

    Let us look at summer designs at Miami FL compared to Madison WI: Miami is 90 & 77-WB for a 13F drop for 56% RH, with a 111F Heat Index; Madison WI is 88 with 73-WB a 15 drop for 49% RH with a 102F Heat Index.

    However, we get real high Heat Indexes: National Weather Service Weather Forecast Office, Temperatures during the July, 1995 heat wave pushed into the 100 to 105 range across South-central and Southeast Wisconsin, while muggy air with dewpoints in the upper 70s to lower 80s added to the discomfort. The combination of heat and humidity resulted in heat index values peaking in the 120 to 128-F range; probably the highest values in Wisconsin recorded history.

    The duration of the heat wave and the stuffy overnight conditions amplified its affects on humans, since it became difficult to recover at night from the daytime affects of the heat.

    Heat waves in Florida typically occur during periods of drought, low humidity and mostly clear skies.

    In June 1985, a severe heat wave hit the state with temperatures of 106˚F in Ocala and 105˚F in Lakeland.
    Another prominent heat wave struck in 2011 when Tallahassee hit an all-time record high temperature of 105 degrees on June 15.
    The highest heat index temperature reported in Florida in 2010 was 124˚F in Apalachicola on July 31.

    Therefore, Miami's extremes are no worse then mine in SW WI.
    In my 1937 farm home I have a little Half-Ton window unit cooling 1300-sf "PER-TON" at 124-F Heat Index or some-what higher; it kept it within 78-F & around 55% RH, very comfortable.

    Therefore, it would seem to me something is way wrong if you can only keep people comfortable at 400-sf per ton!

    Got to get off power company is going to work on Transformer!
    I DIDN'T HAVE TIME TO EDIT ALL THE ERRORS; as had to shut-down PC in a hurry.

    IMO, you need to have a "Home Energy Efficiency Audit" performed & do the cost-effective things to bring the heat-gain down, so a much lower tonnage will do the job of keeping the occupants comfortable.

    The duct system is probably way too small - along with the Return Air filter area, which is greatly lowering the 5-Ton's Rated tonnage capacity...

    After the Retro-work is done, do the Manual J room by room heat gain calc & then size equipment & ductwork to what it says; do not fudge on what it tells you...You will NOT get, lower tonnages, along with real efficiency, by ignoring any of the critically important 'total home' factors...!

    The output of equipment should always be at least ballpark checked; - there are easy ways to do it that only takes as few minutes.

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Keokuk, IA
    Posts
    5,520
    I alsoways remind peopel that the dry bulb design in most of FLorida is the same as SE Iowa, it's just hot there longer, doeesn't have a winter and it more humid almsot all the time. But hte heat waves we get can easily match the weather there.

    THe logic to oversize because it's hot most of the time, would be the same logic as buying a really big BBQ grill because you grill often. The frequency of grilling is irrelvant to the size and burner capacity needed.

  8. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Tallahassee, FL
    Posts
    6,051
    I know I'm beating a dead horse here but there is no magic chart to show your contractor if your ducts are ok.

    I would love to see some pictures of the existing indoor unit and the filter setup.

    Just for fun since the filter size is so critical describe your current setup.

  9. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by duckman06 View Post
    Anyways the Trane would be the best system out of the 2 you narrowed it down to. The XB 14 in a 061 model has a 2 stage/step compressor in it and with the variable speed air handler you have a good system just hope that it works good since no one has ran a load on the home. At least it is 2 stage while still could be oversized? At least it will be able to stage is wired up properly.
    For some reason - I felt comfortable with Bryant Installer than Trane and decided to go with it. I hope Bryant Preferred is not horrible compared to Trane XB14 series. I thought Bryant also 2 stage compressor in it as well with variable speed air handler. All is not lost yet; I have still time to change my mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by SBKold View Post
    I know I'm beating a dead horse here but there is no magic chart to show your contractor if your ducts are ok.

    I would love to see some pictures of the existing indoor unit and the filter setup.

    Just for fun since the filter size is so critical describe your current setup.
    The old air handler unit was removed today and here is the measurement of the duct size : 15 in x 17 in. If I am not mistaken, I guess it is too small for a 5Ton AC to blow air thru.

    ---

    One more contractor/installer told me - for Bryant Preferred series they had to do extra work and run like 4 wires go from from Inside Unit/Thermidistat to Outside Condensor unit for the humidification / second stage. Is that true?

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    SW Wisconsin
    Posts
    5,031
    The maximum main supply trunk 1000-fpm velocity, the Return is 800-fpm which calls for a maximum of 1770-CFM or a 5-Ton system operating at 350-CFM per/ton of cooling. I'd still go with a 4-Ton system...

    I prefer considerably less velocity, than the above, through both Supply & Return. Maximum Return Grille (not a filter grille) velocity is 600-fpm.

    The Return Duct system would have to be sized larger, I would want the filter area sized for 300-FPM initial Velocity, if/or, when using a clean cheap fiber glass filter; that means at least two large filter areas, cutting the airflow amount by half through each one.

    Even if you use the extra deep pleated filters, - the more total filter area & reduced velocity through them the better. In order to determine as much as possible what you have, - a Manual D assessment is in order here...

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