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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
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    3,298

    Re: they want it both ways!

    Originally posted by isitfixedyet
    they want a tech,,
    to wait all day for a call to come in, and get paid nothing to pay there bills ,and not do side jobs or look for work, and be loyal.
    lol
    then they want to pay a tech flat rate, and bill the customer alot more!
    then they want to pay the tech less,
    residential? lol
    fly by night mom and pop shops!

    see you are one of the problems with this idea
    you dont have an open mind

    i am not a fly by night shop and neither are lots of other smal companies here
    the long and short is (again lets use nice round numbers)
    lets say you make 40,000 a year and you work 2000 hours @ $20 an hour what woud be wrong with making the same 40k and only working maybe 1700 hrs?

    and i am not talking about taking a $20 an hour guy and paying him $20 an hour flat rate i am talking about taking a $20 an hour guy and paying him closer to $30 an hout flat rate (again just round numbers)
    now i did work for a guy that only paid on billable hours and i didnt stay because the rate was the same i could make anywhere else so i know that doesnt work what i am talking about is making it so that a good tech would never wat to leave because it sucks to train someone to have them jump ship


  2. #28
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
    Posts
    3,298
    hey anyone readng this that is a resi service tech
    do me a favor and post a normal or actual day of work, not how many hours, but how many calls and what each of those calls were
    then we can actually get this figured out if you would make more or not

    maybe i need to adjust how i am thinking but i know there is a way for a tech to make more using this system

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Western, NY
    Posts
    817
    I have worked flat rate before and didn't really care for it. Didn't like the fact that I had to stock the truck and gas it up without getting paid for it. You want me to do that stuff, then fine . Pay me for it.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    right, here! in the heartland of the homeland!
    Posts
    737

    lol

    its not jsut about making more, its about being fair, not only to yourself but to both parties here!

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    east kansas
    Posts
    8,035
    The difference between auto and hvac shop?

    The job comes to you. And a car has a lot less variables.

    I want to go to work for someone else. Because I don't want the hassle of managing people. I'm not very good at it and probally will never be. I do very well with repairing equipment. I don't expect large rewards, but I do expect to work year round and to be paid for it.

    I'll be loyal to you as long as your loyal to me. Don't tell me your carrying me during the winter and even send me home when I busted my ass for you in the summer. Pay me enough to live comfortably and I can provide for my family. There are ways to track my productivity, so show me in black and white what I'm worth.

    Problems with billable hours.
    Office staff no doing their job right.
    Sales force not doing their job.
    Other people's call backs.
    My own call backs.
    Installation errors.

    I'm sure the list can go on.

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
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    3,298
    so you would rather work more hours for the same money ?

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Originally posted by acefurnacefixer
    I have no problem with flat rate........keeps us honest i think. If the book says 1.5 hrs you get paid 1.5 no matter how long it takes. What pisses me off is employers that use the flat rate system, but dont pay there techs that way.
    I worked for a shop like that.

    They had no problem sending the guy home if the job was completed ahead of the book time. Customer got billed at a flat rate, but the worker was paid hourly.

    No thanks.
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  8. #34
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
    Posts
    3,298
    ok let me get this straight
    not being a smart ass but you want to get paid hourly, every minute of everyday but you also want to get paid extra if you get done early ?

    am I missing something here or just misunderstanding?

    Here is what I am getting maybe I misunderstood so please correct me if I am wrong

    You do a job that takes 4 hrs the book says 3 you want paid for 4
    You also think that you do a job in an hour and the book says 3 you should get the 3?
    I donít see how it is fair for it to work both ways
    I also understand that a lot of guys donít care if its fair they just want to be overpaid and not do anything for it (I am not saying that it is anyone in this conversation but if it gets your panties in a bunch then maybe it does apply to you)

  9. #35
    Originally posted by dhvac
    so you would rather work more hours for the same money ?
    I don't think that anybody said they would rather work more hours for the same amount of money. I think what it boils down to is that people like a little stability in their lifes and that means knowing what to expect on their paycheck from week to week. This is something that would be hard to do when you are getting paid by billable hours.

    What happens when times are slow? If you are paying them by billable hours you are not going to pay them for standing around the shop, are you?

    So essentially even though you say they are making more per hour worked, what you are not taking into consideration is the fact that when they are not working on something that is billable they aren't getting paid at all. A lot of the things that are required are not billable like getting gas for the company van or making sure that the van is stocked with parts. These are things that have to be done and are just the cost of running a business. Now how do you go about paying the tech for doing this? You don't. This is just time the tech has to eat.

    Paying a tech this way is just a sure way to provide cost certainty for the employer. The tech on the other hand will not have this luxury and any unexpected problems will probably cost him time and money.

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
    Posts
    3,298
    Ok milk man
    First I will give you that the difference is that we go to the job but if you get paid to show up at the job then what makes a difference you are being paid for it?

    Now with this being said if you drive from one far side of my service area to the other extreme the most you could drive is about 50 minutes

    As far as work year round I agree but if you make $800 a week for 40 hrs why would you be upset at making $800 in 30?

    To pay you what you are worth is what I am suggesting to give you actual top dollar for the time you work not figure in down time so I can hold some back to pay you during slow times
    If you make the same money in a year but cant budget it then why is that someone elseís fault? Or even responsibility for that matter
    Lets push the same scenario to the extreme let say you get a job offer that they want to pay you for a year up front on estimated hours (I know it would never happen) but lets say they give you a check on Jan 1st for 40k and you have to work for the year before you get another check would you turn that down also (donít read into it by adding b/s scenarios)

    As far as loyalty I donít see how much more loyal I could get besides paying you 1.5 times the amount you could get anywhere else (remember I was not talking about paying you your average wage)

    Now as far as the problems you pointed out


    What problems with billable hours it is flat rate thatís the price thatís the hours no problems that I see, I donít bill customers by the hour I bill them by the job they donít know how many hours same as I donít know how much McDonalds pays for my burger or to have it made

    Office staff well I guess they could screw that up but also they could screw up any paycheck at any time and it is something that could be easily fixed

    Sales force
    Since when do salesman sell service calls? For resi anyway?

    Other peoples call backs well I think if you have a decent company you should do your own call backs so that you can learn and not have the same callback again (if you need help there should be help available)

    Your own call backs
    Well honestly to be fair how many do you have? If you have a lot then you shouldnít be getting top wages if you have a few it shouldnít be a problem to cover them
    Installation errors should be billed to the company as the same hours that the customer would pay

    Now I donít have all the answers but this could work if both the company and the employee can be adults and not try to screw each other

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Just as an example, if the customer is billed for 8 hours of labor and I get the job done in 6, the usual thing that happens is I get sent home with 6. That really frosts my a$$ when I find out about it.

    Sometimes I am paid for 8, but that has been rare until fairly recently.

    Sometimes, the jobs run over the time allotted. There can be many reasons for this, ranging from the scope of the work was severely underestimated to poor delivery scheduling from the shop. In all honesty, I am not in a position to purposely stick it up the boss' a$$ because that just ain't so smart.

    I suppose if it is OK for the tech in your examples to "eat it" a few times here and there when a job goes bad, then turnabout is fair play, right???

    I have never been "officially" paid by flat rate (piecework), but, like I said, I have worked for at least one company that charged for XX hours of labor and rushed the tech/installer to "git 'er done" much faster and then go home short hours.

    I also understand that an hourly employee is still kinda paid "by the piece" because there are only so many hours allotted for each job.

    I can also say that my current employer is doing everything in his power to keep the two guys that he has from jumping ship. We got paid for 8 hours the other day and really only worked 5.5. We are still fixing SNAFU's from a previous employee. If I got paid strictly by "billable hours" I would have been making an effort to bail long ago. I give the boss a lot of respect, and I have told him so.
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


  12. #38
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    S.W. PA
    Posts
    3,298
    Bruce
    No I wouldnít pay them to stand around the shop because why should they be at the sop if there is no work? I am sure that time off could be better used by doing whatever they like to do rather then standing at work with thumb inserted

    as far as getting gas for the company van I donít know about lots of guys but I get gas once to twice a week at the most it takes 15 minutes each time so at the most its Ĺ hr a week out of a techs time to put gas in the van and for that you would rather not make as much money?

    Not stocking parts should also not take up a lot of time since the parts should be called or faxed in by the tech when they use them on a job and the replacement should be at the shop or dropped off at a job so again there is almost no time here if you have the right systems in place


    As far as stability I do understand to a point but donít know why it should be up to the company to budget for a tech

    I mean letís say every week in the summer you make 15 hrs overtime should they guarantee you the same overtime all year just so you have stability?

    And if stability is truly an issue then what is wrong with a salary position?
    And why should you get paid overtime on salary when you put in more the 40 hrs but not take a cut when you donít do 40?

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Near Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,317
    Originally posted by dhvac
    As far as stability I do understand to a point but donít know why it should be up to the company to budget for a tech
    Why is it that some companies have no trouble budgeting a few weeks vacation for employees, yet in the HVAC industry the company is telling the tech/worker (that is in such short supply) to eff off and sit at home until the boss gets some work????

    And employers really wonder why employees have no loyalty or may not give a rats a$$ about the business side of things?
    Proper Prior Planning Prevents Piss Poor Performance

    "There is hardly anything in the world that some man cannot make a little worse and sell a little cheaper, and the people who consider price only are this man's lawful prey. It's unwise to pay too little.
    When you pay too much, you lose a little money -- that is all. When you pay too little, you may lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do.

    The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot -- it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well to add something for the risk you run. And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

    John Ruskin


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