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  1. #79
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Middle of Florida
    Posts
    2,159
    The only time I ever worked Piece meal was with installation.
    This thread has now taught me the difference between Billable and Flat Rate.
    Sounds like it works better in Resi. than comm.


    I am commercial hourly now and never been happier!
    I will stay Hourly!
    If common sense is so common how come so few of us have it!

  2. #80
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    east kansas
    Posts
    8,038
    Quote Originally Posted by ;1302883
    milk man
    i was not even trying to suggest that you shouldnt get a "regular paycheck" in the reguards to every week what i am saying is that there has to be a way to pay you well enough in the time that you do, you own job (not sweeping the floor or changing oil) that you shouldnt have to put up with the work that i hated so much when i worked for someone else

    if you can get paid on productivity then you should make more money in less time there for when it is slow you should still have enough to live without having to do tasks that are better suited for a janitor

    also if you do more work and make more for the company then why should the guys slacking off make the same paycheck?
    It must just be the way I'm wired.

    I don't think I've been in a well enough orginized shop that could support performanced base pay. I do a lot of clean up. Hard to bill someone that has spent $500 and their furnace still isn't running.

  3. #81
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Middletown, Ohio, United States
    Posts
    573
    Indeed, there are pluses and minuses to the "billable time" modus of pay. That's how they do it where I work. The managment obviously thinks that it is advantageous for them to operate this way. They most certainly wouldn't do anything that would lean toward the tech. However, as with most management, they fail to see the disadvantage of the "billable time" only scenario. What happens under this operating mode is that unscrupulous, disillusioned, or aggravated technicians will "stick it to the customer" instead of "stickin' it to the Man." All time will be billed to the customer- picking up paperwork, "turnover meetings," socializing at the shop, lunch hour or two or three (one guy sat out in the dining room for a two hour lunch, billed the customer for it, and still didn't fix the problem right- I know, I had to run his callback and recieved a good ten minute cursing and gripe session; all legitimate). Obviously, under this mode of operation, "billable time only" reaps great short-term profit but inevitable long-term consequences through loss of customers and reputations. Yet, management has persistently encouraged the billing of all time, even non-productive time to the customer, even meetings that have nothing to do with the particular customer that one is slated to service or perform maintenance.

    I won't do it. It is dishonest. So oftimes I am in uniform for 50 hours but perhaps get paid for 45 because I will not "fudge on the service ticket time.
    Hey, I have to sleep at night and I care for my own reputation even if the company is not worried about their own.

    And then mangement wonders why there is an exodus of accounts . . .
    See, the human mind is kind of like... a piñata. When it breaks open, there's a lot of surprises inside. Once you get the piñata perspective, you see that losing your mind can be a peak experience. ~Jane Wagner

  4. #82
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Vancouver Island, British Columbia Canada
    Posts
    87

    billable hours

    Every job I've had in this great trade of our has been a billable hour job,enfact its tough to find one that isn't around here. The system has its advantages and disadvantages,as do all systems.But the one thing that bothers me the most is how comfortable employers get with the pharse "I need this done asap, but we can't pay you to do it...." employers will fight tooth and nail to not work for less than their hourly rate,and they make money off the parts they sell,but they expect their guys to cut their hourly rate all the time by only paying them for aportion of what they worked, and we make zilch on parts sales!
    A Man Built It,A Man Can Fix It

  5. #83
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    crossville
    Posts
    608

    when CHILTON

    Quote Originally Posted by ;1299854
    The auto industry has been doing this for years and it could work in our industry also

    Granted it takes people who want to make it work
    As an owner I am not looking to screw anyone (hard to believe I know)
    When I worked for someone else I hated getting stupid jobs to fill a time card like sweep the shop floor or dusting sheet metal fittings

    Now let’s use nice round numbers and not sure how much people get paid in their areas but let’s say a tech makes $20 an hour for every hour he is at work so he does 40 hours and makes $800 for the week

    Now let’s take the same tech and put him on a good flat rate system lets say he makes $10 just to show up at a call and he makes $30 an hour for flat rate now he gets 45 min to troubleshoot which is $22.50
    Now he changes a furnace blower motor which in my book takes 1.5 hrs so he will make another $45 now on this one call he has made $77.50 or a little more then 3.5 hours of what he made at $20 an hour

    Now how many calls do you do in a week or even a day?

    I don’t think that this would work with the real lazy or real slow techs I also don’t think it is fair if you are making the same wage as you was before this

    But for someone who cares about their work and won’t take shortcuts this could be a great thing

    You have the potential of making a lot more money
    It also allows the company to not have to worry about making payroll when things are slow by having you sweep the shop because even if you only worked 3 days in a week you could have the potential of getting a 40 hr check

    Now I know not al companies would be fair with it and it would take some time to get everything worked out so that no one was losing money
    Now somewhere in these books it has a task that says it will take you 45 min to do this and no way anyone could ever do it in that time then it should be adjusted and yes the tech would lose out on one job but make up for it on 50 more
    Also we all know there are some things that just don’t go right so yes the tech would lose on that also but like I said for every 1 that goes real bad you have 20 to 100 that go right

    Also I only do resi work so I am not speculating anything on commercial or industrial because even though I feel that 45 minutes is enough to diagnose a resi unit (99% of the time) it may very well be too short to do anything in another line
    WRITES an set of books that covers all the differences in each MFG units and puts approiate time to cover all the differences in the units, AND covers all the differences in the installations your can come across, from crawl space with no room to remover and blower, to attics with trusses and no room to pull out an blower housing, THEN AND MAYBE JUST THEN I could consider an flat rate, but untill then flat rate if for the birds, and it hurts everybody who tries it, then only one who benefits is an owner who cant manages his personal,
    Last edited by esornivram; 02-13-2007 at 09:45 PM. Reason: spelling
    If you cant cool it
    HEAT THE Hello out of it

  6. #84
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1
    Hello Mr. ARPA

    Is it possible to have you share the same information with me.

    Your time and assistance is appreciated

    Thanks
    Angel

    Quote Originally Posted by dhvac View Post
    arpa
    do you have any more info you could send me on how this works this looks like the perfect setup

    i like that it pays you for what you do not how long it takes you to do it

    i also like the fact that good techs would make money and the bad ones will leave due to going broke

    any help at all would be greatly appriciated
    thanks
    dave


    ps my email adds is in my profile if you could send anything

  7. #85
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Memphis TN USA
    Posts
    6,969
    Only flat rate job Iworked was a nightmare. I like to do a good job whenever I can. It is hard to get paid when you are following 3 or 4 years of shortcuts. Before I can do my job, I have to finish the job that was 3/4 done before I arrived.

    Coil cleaning is the worst. A couple of years of spraying a little water on the coil, then I come along to actually clean it.

    Most of the systems for that company were overcharged as well. I quess it does not pay to wait a little while to make sure the charge is right.

    When I said something to the boss. He said" I did this work for 35 years, you can't pull anything over on me." I n the same conversation he also told me I can't use more than one set of gages at a time. I asked him if he ever worked on a system that had 4 or 6 compressors. Did not last long after that comment

    So in a perfect world flat rate is great, In a perfect world things would not break though.

    As far as billable hours, I bill for drive time, supply house trips, etc. Everything but call-backs.
    If the superheat ain't right it ain't charged right.

  8. #86
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Montreal, Qc.
    Posts
    790
    Quote Originally Posted by kim View Post
    Only flat rate job Iworked was a nightmare. I like to do a good job whenever I can. It is hard to get paid when you are following 3 or 4 years of shortcuts. Before I can do my job, I have to finish the job that was 3/4 done before I arrived.

    Coil cleaning is the worst. A couple of years of spraying a little water on the coil, then I come along to actually clean it.

    Most of the systems for that company were overcharged as well. I quess it does not pay to wait a little while to make sure the charge is right.

    When I said something to the boss. He said" I did this work for 35 years, you can't pull anything over on me." I n the same conversation he also told me I can't use more than one set of gages at a time. I asked him if he ever worked on a system that had 4 or 6 compressors. Did not last long after that comment

    So in a perfect world flat rate is great, In a perfect world things would not break though.

    As far as billable hours, I bill for drive time, supply house trips, etc. Everything but call-backs.
    We're a small non union shop (2 techs) but we're well treated get to bring our trucks home with us and even get to choose our own vehicles.
    We get paid breakfasts or lunches or very nice suppers when we're out discussing business.
    All our customers are large commercial or industrial.
    We work on billable hours with 1 hour drive time billed to every service call within the city.
    Outside the city we bill actual drive time.
    Sometimes I lose a little time in traffic other times I can bang off 3 calls in the same area and pick up some extra time.
    I also worked as a manufacturers technical rep in the past where we were paid fixed salary with no overtime pay but I was also well compensated for it so I didn't mind.

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