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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Chicago land area 60181
    Posts
    103

    what BMS system would you install

    Hello to all
    This is the first post in the controls section of this board.
    I have been given the job of researching building management systems for our properties. A little about the project we are in the western suburbs of Chicago and the equipment varies from 1980’s air cooled chillers to 2009 chillers, package units to water source heat pumps, single pipe systems with convection units to air handlers. The manufactures on the equipment vary as well.
    So what my questions to all if it was a perfect world what system would you install?
    I’m looking for ease of install ease of programming and of course price.
    I really I’m not intrseted in any bashing of anyone. So let me know what you think.
    Thanks Rich

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    77
    Of course I'm going to say Siemens TALON system, (it's what my company uses). It's the Tridium Niagara AX platform branded for Siemens. I've never seen the AX platform that's used by other companies, but I know they're out there. It is open, so it can talk multiple protocols, (BACnet IP & MSTP, Modbus RTU/ASCII & TCP, Lon, SNMP). My company uses this for all our projects, from Data Center Site Monitoring to i-Building© (intelligent buildings). I'm actually one of our Building System Integrators, and enjoy getting all kinds of different brands and systems talking together on a common platform. Our building has a York rooftop (BACnet IP), Douglas Lighting controls (Lon), Novus Door Access, Generator (BACnet MSTP), Power Monitoring (Lon), yada yada.... all talking and operating through one intelligent interface. I've babbled on log enough, (I love my work!). Feel free to contact me if you have any questions.
    John
    Nobody knows it ALL. That's why we share.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Sure. US. We fit into the Army Corps LON spec really well. The reason for that is our system is open on all sides so if you want to use another front end that's easily possible - although our front end is free.

    Here are our main features:
    1. Free Software
    2. Free Updates
    3. Embedded Devices
    4. Low Cost
    Our philosophy is that we actually manufacture our own hardware; therefore, we provide you free updates that are backward compatible. You pay once for that hardware and should be done. No licensing or upgrade costs. Our config tools are easy to use. You don't need to know any web languages to make a GUI page.

    Any AX platform you choose this is not the case for free software. So, you buy our product one time and don't worry about upgrade costs. I think you will get any AX'er tell you they maintain multiple builds of workbench out of necessity.

    As far as protocols, we only work with open ones so that our boxes can stay open. That would be bacnet, LON, Modbus, Mbus and OPC.

    I'm close by the Western Suburbs and have no problem driving in to see you to go over things. I think more important to you than the product is the methods you choose to arrive at retrofit/installation to maintain your costs over time. I can give you a contact that can compare our products directly with AX if you would like. Probably well worth talking to him as he is a fair guy.

    Regarding TALON- I have to agree that TALON gets some special features that the other Tridium guys do not get with licensing options so there can be some advantages there. Actually, large advantage as you could use our lower cost product in the system and use one central TALON.... significant savings over other Tridium installations.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Denton, TX
    Posts
    94
    Sysint. Can you post a link to your website. AX is extremely powerful, but I also don't like the constant licensing and upgrades. Thanks. Jordan.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    www.loytec-americas.com

    I'm talking about LINX and LVis standalone or in conjunction with something like Tridium, Plexus, Inet, OPC Scada systems... Check into our free LWeb 800. I can tell you that our method is faster with the data than a Tridium system. You can dump our stuff on a cheap PC and to equal it from Tridium you would need a blade server running Supervisor... seriously. However, there is a slight cost difference between a $400 PC and a blade server...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Sure. US. We fit into the Army Corps LON spec really well. The reason for that is our system is open on all sides so if you want to use another front end that's easily possible - although our front end is free.

    Here are our main features:
    1. Free Software
    2. Free Updates
    3. Embedded Devices
    4. Low Cost
    Our philosophy is that we actually manufacture our own hardware; therefore, we provide you free updates that are backward compatible. You pay once for that hardware and should be done. No licensing or upgrade costs. Our config tools are easy to use. You don't need to know any web languages to make a GUI page.

    Any AX platform you choose this is not the case for free software. So, you buy our product one time and don't worry about upgrade costs. I think you will get any AX'er tell you they maintain multiple builds of workbench out of necessity.

    As far as protocols, we only work with open ones so that our boxes can stay open. That would be bacnet, LON, Modbus, Mbus and OPC.

    I'm close by the Western Suburbs and have no problem driving in to see you to go over things. I think more important to you than the product is the methods you choose to arrive at retrofit/installation to maintain your costs over time. I can give you a contact that can compare our products directly with AX if you would like. Probably well worth talking to him as he is a fair guy.

    Regarding TALON- I have to agree that TALON gets some special features that the other Tridium guys do not get with licensing options so there can be some advantages there. Actually, large advantage as you could use our lower cost product in the system and use one central TALON.... significant savings over other Tridium installations.
    You have demonstrated in the past that you struggle with, or possibly are incapable of, telling the truth. But now you are struggling reading?

    The OP stated he wasn't interested in bashing. Or is it that you don't consider it bashing, just more Loytec sanctioned lies?

    But please, enlighten and dazzle us all with your Talon AX and other AX expertise and explain these 'special feature' advantages. Or don't, and prove that, once again, you don't have the slightest clue of what you speak of.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    FACT: Staefa has some licensing options you don't have.
    FACT: Our servers are less expensive than a JACE 2.
    FACT: Our data rate is faster because we don't need a Supervisor and don't bundle our boxes like Tridium.

    So, please tell me what's not the truth. And, it's not bashing. I gave the OP a scenario whereby he could use Niagara and our product.

    I'd like to hear where you think the bashing and the lies are. Never did I say that the other systems don't work. Please be very specific.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    FACT: Staefa has some licensing options you don't have.
    FACT: Our servers are less expensive than a JACE 2.
    FACT: Our data rate is faster because we don't need a Supervisor and don't bundle our boxes like Tridium.

    So, please tell me what's not the truth. And, it's not bashing. I gave the OP a scenario whereby he could use Niagara and our product.

    I'd like to hear where you think the bashing and the lies are. Never did I say that the other systems don't work. Please be very specific.
    No, I don't play that game of yours. No turn-around here. Give specifics, as I previously requested, or at least have the guts to admit you were caught in ANOTHER Loytec lie. Then you can put your plaid trilby back on and get back out on the lot.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    FACT: Staefa has some licensing options you don't have.
    Like what? a proprietary Talon programming tool? I think you got nothing, and/or misinformed by some Staefa guy on this one Sys.

    Staefa AX as far as openness..... is one step ahead of Invensys. about even with Honeywell, and well behind the rest I have delt with.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    NW Ohio
    Posts
    949
    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    Like what? a proprietary Talon programming tool? I think you got nothing, and/or misinformed by some Staefa guy on this one Sys.

    Staefa AX as far as openness..... is one step ahead of Invensys. about even with Honeywell, and well behind the rest I have delt with.
    GregF could confirm this, but I believe the CRaptor programming tool is a totally separate piece of, Workplace based, software. It isn't integrated into your Workplace.

    Hence, that wouldn't count anyway.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    9,564
    Quote Originally Posted by freddy-b View Post
    Like what?....I think you got nothing, and/or misinformed by some Staefa guy on this one Sys.
    Staefa AX as far as openness..... is one step ahead of Invensys. about even with Honeywell, and well behind the rest I have delt with.
    Talk to Digo. He should know. We went over it before. They can put any type of NIC on the software JACE and dump it on the machine of their choice. So, they can avoid installing any 6's if they want. Let me know if you can license your SoftJACE for LON fieldbus driver. Then please let Ninax know who's right. Thanks.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    191

    I'M in

    OKay, I am a Delta Partner so guess what? I say Delta Controls. The reason I like Delta is that you get to all software tools from opening their one software package. If a customer wants to save money, you don't have to buy the software PIK for all features like their drawing feature to make graphics. I have used many systems and Delta made their software functions to think just like I think. That doesn't mean every person will pick it us easily because we don't all think alike. I also like their WEB package. It is a separate software package to run the WEB server. Not every customer will need this. It is BACnet and I have a system with about 8 other manufacturers BACnet devices integrated into the Delta system and have very minimal problems. These problems are most always only in the very initial setup.

    Now this being said, I can add that almost everybody makes a good hardware product or they will not be in business for long. One big difference will be in the software and the other biggest differences can be in the company that installs and supports the system. I have seen a wide variation in that. One company can make a good product appear to be terrible because of their shortcomings and another company, because of their knowledge, might be able to make a little bit less capable system be everything a customer desires.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by sysint View Post
    Talk to Digo. He should know. We went over it before. They can put any type of NIC on the software JACE and dump it on the machine of their choice. So, they can avoid installing any 6's if they want. Let me know if you can license your SoftJACE for LON fieldbus driver. Then please let Ninax know who's right. Thanks.
    Thats handy, but irrelevant 99.9 % of the time.

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