Goodman heat pump assistance - low pressure cutout

[wmc20]

Hi All, and Happy [almost] New Year

I'm a home owner with a Goodman split system heat pump, that recently developed troubles. The outdoor unit is approx 12 years old, R-22, model CPKJ18-1.

The air handler fan was running constantly, but blowing ambient temp air, and that was getting steadily cooler.

* The outside unit was dead - no compressor, no fan.
* Found the main service panel breaker tripped.
* Outputs from Honeywell thermo' tested ok.
* I went outside and pulled the safety disconnect, verified no AC, and got in the electronics.
* There was 24VAC (actually a little more) between the yellow (compressor) and blue (common) low-voltage leads. (think that's pretty standard color coding?)
* Zero voltage on the fan & compressor contactor coil, but resistances seemed reasonable at 15 ohms.
* Read schematic - there is a low pressure cutout switch on the yellow before the contactor. NO voltage from LPC switch, and its resistance reads open.
* Turned breaker on, replaced safety.
* Still dead. Carefully probed contactor, have 240V at the inputs, but zero on the coil.
* Held contactor throw closed with screwdriver. Fan and compressor started, but got a whiff of "electrical burn" from the blower air out the top, and it's making irregular compressor noises. Let off after a couple seconds and haven't tried to re-start.

So I guess it really did run empty of Freon?? I had it professionally service about 14 months ago, and they had to top-off the R22. Don't have a gauge set, and that's over my head anyway, though I understand the basic refrigeration concept.

How disastrous is this? Is it typical for a compressor burn to out from it? Guess I'm trying to gauge magnitude of repair / replacement I'm in for. Not sure if I should blow $100 on a service call Monday when I should just be getting quotes for a whole new system.

-Wayne

[blazey10]

So are you going to fix your 12 year old unit or get bids for a new system ?


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[wmc20]

Sorry, I should have been more clear, or put my final paragraph closer to the top.

I am seeking professional input on professional replacement vs professional repair (and what severity, if any, the damage may be.)

I did read the forum rules about DIY, and I've already thrown in the towel any further DIY. Was just providing the info to explain what I knew about the failure mode.

Thanks for any input you can offer. I have backup heat for now, but w. holiday may be Wednesday before anyone can make a call out here, and wondering what I'm in for. I hate the "disposable mentality" of products these days but realize 12 y.o. is getting up there. It has been well maintained though and hopefully will be able to go for a few more years.

-Thanks! Wayne

[Milk man]

Have a service call. If you need a new system you can ask for the service call be refunded. Not everyone will do this.

I would charge you for the call and expect payment at time of service. And I would also quote a new system and show a discount of the cost of the service call on the quote.

Don't push the contactor in again. If the system is out of refrigerant you could arc inside the compressor and have a burn out. Depending on how the line set is ran you may not be able to replace it and have contaminates to clean.

[Brent Ridley]

Have a service call. If you need a new system you can ask for the service call be refunded. Not everyone will do this.

I would charge you for the call and expect payment at time of service. And I would also quote a new system and show a discount of the cost of the service call on the quote.

Don't push the contactor in again. If the system is out of refrigerant you could arc inside the compressor and have a burn out. Depending on how the line set is ran you may not be able to replace it and have contaminates to clean.

X2

I can't explain more about your diagnosis or if any components are damaged. That is unknown. The failure has not yet been correctly diagnosed.

Call a professional. If need one in your area, check our contractor locator map.

After you get a professional diagnosis, come back and post results. We then can help you determine repair or replace.

[hvacvegas]

12 year old unit. If it's truely out of refrigerant I'd get a new one.

The cost of r-22 has increased in the last 14 months, quite a bit.

[wmc20]

Have an answer, but not the one I wanted to hear. Tech' was out; real nice competent Dude from the co' that installed it 12 years ago. He gave the valve core in one of the test ports a quick poke, and the thing is dead empty. He said the coils in the air handler are subject cracking from all the pressure reverse cycles, and that's probably where all the refrigerant dumped. Got inside to the compressor, and under the cover one of the wires to it was scorched, and the terminal melted clean off & dangling. Thus probably sitting there stalled with only 120V on half the motor windings

They seem to be pushing Lennox & Trane for new stuff -- thoughts? Pros / Cons?

Does the "no pricing" rule prohibit SWAG ball park wild estimates on the damage I'm in for?

-Thanks, Wayne

[SBKold]

He didn't think the compressor terminal was also the leak?

[Brent Ridley]

He didn't perform a leak search? He should've performed a leak search (electronic or pressurized) to determine exactly where the leak is.

With the results of a leak search you can judge whether to repair or replace.

[wmc20]

No leak search. It was already 5pm on New Years Eve, and I think he still had to calls to make. Says when it gets major like a compressor, he turns it over to their sales & engineering guys to spec' and price out options. Supposed to be investigating replacement compressor (doubts), new outside unit, or new outside & air handler (guessing they'll push for the later.) Found a web site with surprisingly low prices on new split systems -- gives me a little sigh of relief at least.

[Brent Ridley]

Found a web site with surprisingly low prices on new split systems -- gives me a little sigh of relief at least.

Oh no. You will be hard pressed to find someone around this site who supports online system purchases.

You get what you pay for.

Which will be a low end cheap no warranty mess.

If your planning on replacing; my suggestion would be to find a good contractor. Purchase the system and install from them. That way you have a good quality system complete with install and equipment warranties.

[wmc20]

Re: the online place, is a good price comparison tool. My Mom had to get a system replaced a few years ago, and I'm afraid she really got screwed on price -- and I am the guy that got quotes from the contractors. It occurred to me I could do the mechanical and electrical installation myself, but then when I try to get it brazed & charged, probably be hung up on, or laugh in my face (and the no warranty prob'.)

[SBKold]

What's you're logic here? You can find eggs a lot cheaper than waffle house sells em online.

Are they screwing people?

You're mother got a fair price most likely.

[Brent Ridley]

How do figure she got screwed on price? We aren't allowed to make a profit? We need to make a living too.

She may have gotten screwed on installation quality but I doubt that she got screwed on price.

[SBKold]

Ill let you in on a little trade secret.

Go ahead and get a bigger one while you're at it. They re only a couple hundred more.

[SBKold]

How do figure she got screwed on price? We aren't allowed to make a profit? We need to make a living too.

She may have gotten screwed on installation quality but I doubt that she got screwed on price.

Whew guess we both got a little jumpy on that comment

[VTP99]

Ill let you in on a little trade secret.

Go ahead and get a bigger one while you're at it. They re only a couple hundred more.

[kdean1]

Ill let you in on a little trade secret.

Go ahead and get a bigger one while you're at it. They re only a couple hundred more.

You're pulling his leg, right?

A good contractor will measure your house to do a load calculation to determine the proper size for your system. He should also check the duct system to make sure it is adequate.

[wmc20]

Logic is I can't afford what she got charged at this point, and I'm seeing the sets for 1/4 of what she paid. Charging 3x what the hardware cost seems like it should more than pay for two guys to replace a system in a day (about 12 hrs labor), cover the ancillaries (transitions, con' pump, drip tray, return grille, line flush -- we did get a high $$ t'stat in the package), pay the sales guy, and put money in the boss' pocket. Don't know what the itemized cost breakout is. But a lot of the 25 years I've been an I.T. guy have been spent on one of my least favorite areas: cost accounting. The "no pricing discussion on here" thing is frustrating.

I spoke with their sales assistant after the tech left, and she implied it would likely be in a range that I find a lot more palatable. Hoping I'll be pleasantly surprised.

ACK! Just read 76.1 KWH @ $7.29 since midnight on emerg' heat! May have to turn the stupid thing down to barely above freezing and find someone to crash with for a few days.

-w

[wmc20]

Ill let you in on a little trade secret.
Go ahead and get a bigger one while you're at it. They re only a couple hundred more.

I was thinking about bumping from a 1.5 ton to 2.0; it has had trouble keeping up in the last 11 years. But I guess those naysayers that warn I'll have under-sized ductwork, poor dehumidification, poor equipment life from short-cycling, and higher electricity costs don't know their stuff like you Yes, I'm know you're just puillin' my leg.

And I told 'em they can use 1.5 ton for convenience on the quote, but I want a proper manual-J with whom ever gets the contract!

Peace! And Happy New Year!

-Wayne