why is geo equipment pricing so high?
Hey all, i am some what new to selling geo systems. i have two of my contractors asking for geo bids. i knew these were expensive systems but dang.
a geothermal unit is basicly a heat pump package unit with a few extra components right? i understand the geo being more expensive because of the pump pack, water loop, extra controls, and what not. however, the geo equipment i am being quoted is double the price of an air to air heat pump package unit of equal size. i would expect the geo to be 150% of a2ahppu price but double? am i missing something? also, the price from my well driller is more than my equipment price. is this about right? what is the average % of job that goes to the well guy?
im looking at sending a bid to my contractor that is 3-4 times what a standered "90%gas+ 13-14 seer a/c" job would be. is that crazy? i understand high efficency and speacialised and green is costly and the way of the future and all that but these prices seem a tad high.
welcome to the geo world. The rest of us deal with the same issues
Simplest answer: R&D ain't free. Freq. drives aren't cheap to design or build, which is where a lot of the costs are associated with the higher EER units.
There's also a production number factor here. The manufacturers produce FAR more air to air units, than geo units - economies of scale play an important role here.
Absolutely. Ford makes their money from F150's, not GT40's.
Originally Posted by CraziFuzzy
I would add that the pricing is very geo - centric. Meaning in areas where geo is done as a regular install, not a big upgrade the pricing of the units is about a plus 20% over air to air. In my OA geo is cheaper than the new variable compressor air to air units, and the propane over heat pump units. YMMV
Originally Posted by waterpirate
I would laugh you out of town. People (I mean contractors and consumers) assume far to many things about our profession. First, yes the equipment is more expensive- what would you expect? companies that engineer, tests, builds, and then supports maybe 5000 to 50,000 units in a year must charge more per unit than a company that produces 5,000,000 units. Next, when it comes to the people involved, Geothermal requires (or at least should require) a higher standard of competence than the rest of the industry. It's even more of a multidisciplinary job than the standard air to air, or fuel to air/water systems. Anyway you slice it you should be paying for better people to get the kind of results clients expect. I would NEVER do Geo for 20% more even if open loops were an option to me- which they are not in Colorado.
Just like the rest of the industry, people should expect to PAY for good results, because that's what it takes. People who bid geo cheap generally find themselves doing poor quality work, speaking from personal experience. I fix way to many systems put in by others. It's REALLY embarrassing.
I wonder if the OP will think the same way after their first geo is in the ground and done.
What lies behind us and what lies before us are small matters compared to what lies within us.
Two pressures, four temperatures = SUCCESS!
Boulder Heating Contractor
For HVACR Professionals:
Just a quick note. I was talking about the equipment only being 20% more in cost, not the whole job. I thought that was the OP initial complaint? Or was he talking about the whole job?
seems he was talking about driller too:
Originally Posted by waterpirate
and agreed w/you Eric, too.
"average % of job that goes to the well "
But GEO is rarely just HVAC nor HVAC-DeSuperheater (E-Star minimal systemics)... as I have shared , then watched the q's fly:
To me since 1993 it is HVAC-HotWater-Recovery to instant on-demand 100% HW heating inclusive.
2) In repairing insulations systems and making say, attic sytems as efficient as a best Air-Solar system was since the early 1980's... then some insulation packages WITH GT are in the contract, + a new HW tank with INSTANT Priority- heat-reclaimed systems, and related attached plumbing...
Now the GeoThermal after qualified credits is always a lowest first cost, EER's 25+ (see Hydron bassic ) or VFD, 1000 more EER's 30+ and raw AHRI 40's plus for 5 now OEM's variables...
Gas is cheaper here than GT HW over 104 to 107 deg f produced; but that's at full bore. low to medium programmed speed/staging then allowing way oversized-related heatexchangers to act super efficiently::: no comparrison...
WP can show you on many of his posts at other sites too: WHO sets it up is as "lowest first cost" -ing as you can get, as well as, WHAT of all the HVAC-HW and heat-recovery needs are in the mix.
Even HRV add-ons with Priority HW systems can rake in more savings , as applicable.
Latest "infinitly efficient" air source equipment quote was $1300 more , 25% less efficiency, with some HW system in the comparing.... than all credits and rebates: GT-HW-Reclaim-100% Priority.
horizontal boring, significantly less costly here.
OPEN WELL? no contest- if it passes a 3 to 4 days testing I do.
also nearly 60% of the "efficiency equipment" sales are closed here, with zoning packages, HW, HVAC inclusive... in ONE sales call, and over a 2 hour visit, regardless of no other or a couple "estimates" proposed at the table.
Yes a mini htp and a gas furnace, or boiler sometimes, is sold, too.
How close are the equipment prices comparing multistage geo to multistage conventional heat pump? I suspect pricing would be closer.. Few geo systems are simple single stage..
Geo systems are more expensive because they should be, for all of the mentioned reasons. My company has been doing Geo installations since 1979, and I've never just sold a customer the machine alone. It needs to be installed by a person with a much higher skill-set than an air source unit. the installer should be accredited, and have an excellent knowledge of all things geothermal - ground loop design, hydronics, flow characteristics, and many others. I some cases, like in triple function units, the machine is considerably more expensive to manufacture. also, the complexity of Geo installations can quickly go past the comfort level of some HVAC techs, so you are paying for expertise, as well as the unit. Geo systems are expensive for many reasons, few of them having to do with the actual cost of the unit alone.
great first post codfather