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Thread: Just had Trane XL20i HP, XV95 furnace and XL950 thermostat installed - not real happy

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by beshvac View Post
    Kind of embarrasing when the RNC guys did a better job.......seperate furnace and AC drains.....NOT the BEST, I said better
    In their defense, the floor drain is almost impossible to get to since there is now cabinetry for a wet bar built over it. I hope it never clogs!

  2. #42
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    I spoke to my sales rep and he admitted it was his fault for not being aware that using a non-communicating indoor unit meant that the outdoor unit would not function as such at all. He offered a very fair deal for swapping out the furnaces that will not cost me much additional money at all. And they will address all my concerns with the original install. I'll be sure to post pics once they are done.

    Also, I have been thinking about taking the next logical step and setup zones as well. Here's a revised drawing of the 1st floor of my house, showing how I was thinking about zoning it. The orange rectangles represents all the registers on the main floor. The blue is my single return, and the green is where the XL950 is mounted.



    My understanding is that for zoning to work properly, all registers needs to be dampened somehow, right? The main issue we have right now is that the kids room (zone 3) is always very cold and I have to keep the thermostat set at 72 all night long to keep it in the mid 60s in there. I got 2 little girls, 4 months and 19 months.

    Zone 4 is my office and there are computers running all the time, so it gets really hot with the tstat set at 72. But in the summer time, I need all the cooling I can get in there.

    Zone 2 is the master bedroom, and it also gets uncomfortable warm at night, and this is with 2 of the 3 vents manually shut. In the summer time, I need all 3 vents going to keep in cool.

    Zone 1 is the rest of the house, which does not really need heat (or cooling in the summer at night), but I don't don't have a choice right now since that is where the tstat is located and I do want heat in those rooms during the day. I tend to keep the registers in the panty and 1/2 bath closed in the winter and open the one in the 1/2 bath in the summer.

    I'm thinking about getting them to give me a quote for adding zoning to my new system. From what I can tell, I would need 8 6" round retrofit dampers for zones 2-4 (Trane Part # ZDAMPRRMA0006A) and then a single bottom mount 10x20 damper (Trane Part # ZDAMPBMMA1020A) for zone 1. And of course 3 sensors for zones 2-4. Either wireless or wired, depending on cost. And finally the ComfortLink II Zoning Assembly (ZZONEPNLAC52ZA) which I believe includes discharge air sensor, static pressure transducer and housing, supply & return air static probes and connecting tubing. Would I need any additional mixed air sensors?

    Given my issues and layout, does adding zoning make sense in my case? If so, I want to make sure I tell them exactly what I should get so that they don't mess it up the first time. I think that by not heating/cooling zone 1 at night at the levels I'm force to right now, it will make a significant difference in my energy consumption.

  3. #43
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    When they get done swapping out the new furnace, I want it to look like this



    Above is of course form the wall of pride. I love the curves on the duct work and the fact that there is also a bottom return! I was wondering about why return has such a sharp 90 angle going into the furnace. Can't be good for turbulence. At least the original install had a 45 angle.

  4. #44
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    We install a lot of XL20i systems and I would be embarressed if my installers put one in like that. They should have made a nice transition to the coil. With the coil right on top of the furnace you will not be getting the best efficiency that way since the air is probably missing a bit of the coil. You also really need a furnace intake pipe as others mentioned. Wow is all I can say. I hope they reinstall that furnace and fix everything up for you and yeah the XC95M would be a great upgrade for propane and to get the full communication out of the system.

    Take a look at my YouTube videos below for how we put a XL20i system in.
    Check out my YouTube channel - http://www.youtube.com/user/skyheating1 We have customer testimonials, product reviews and more!
    Like us on FACEBOOK if you like our advice here!

  5. #45
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    Cool videos!

    I forgot to mention the first thing I noticed after they installed the XL950, was that it didn't look level to me. Sure enough, it definitely is not...



    I could easily fix it myself, but I'll make them do it. I know with digital thermostats, it generally doesn't matter unlike those old ones with the mercury float switches in them, but still. Heck, even my Nest thermostat that the XL950 replaced had a leveling bubble built into it. Maybe Trane should consider adding one to their flagship model. Lol.

  6. #46
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    I think they did a good job with the outdoor unit. Let me know if you guys think there is anything here that should be corrected.





    The low voltage wire from the outdoor unit won't reach the new furnace since it currently terminates at the relay panel that will be going away. Should I have them run new wire, or let them splice in an extension? Since we're only talking 2 wires, I'll probably just go back in and solder and heat shrink them later and get rid of those stupid twist on caps that I despise. The wiring being too short will also be the case with the wires going to the XL950 and outdoor temp sensor, since they all terminate at the relay panel right now. I rather they spent their time getting the duct work and piping done correctly this time.

  7. #47
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    The outdoor unit is nicely installed. They took pride in rhat install with the zip ties and even put a clip on the power wire liquid tight.
    I wouldn't worry about the wire cap's If your that OCD just solder em like you said.
    I thought that picture of the nice install was yours fixed I was like "WOW he must have got the D Install Team that day and The A Team fixed it" But saw you found the picture LOL

    Show that to your contractor and ask why your's doesn't look so pretty?
    Glad your getting it fixed Can't wait for picture's

  8. #48
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    Don't zone your unit. It would take big $ to do it right. Look into a multizone Mitsubishi and that will outperform the zoning.

    I thought you would like jimmyeds installs. Keep in mind he is probably THE best in the country and so far no one can match his quality or custom metalwork.

    Ps Don't buy the cleaneffects use the savings and put towards mini splits for supplemental heating

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkyHeating View Post
    We install a lot of XL20i systems and I would be embarressed if my installers put one in like that. They should have made a nice transition to the coil. With the coil right on top of the furnace you will not be getting the best efficiency that way since the air is probably missing a bit of the coil. You also really need a furnace intake pipe as others mentioned. Wow is all I can say. I hope they reinstall that furnace and fix everything up for you and yeah the XC95M would be a great upgrade for propane and to get the full communication out of the system.

    Take a look at my YouTube videos below for how we put a XL20i system in.
    you seem kinda harsh ..... its not that bad not everyone is perfect.......
    it was working.... played with it.... now its broke.... whats the going hourly rate for HVAC repair

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by SBKold View Post
    Don't zone your unit. It would take big $ to do it right. Look into a multizone Mitsubishi and that will outperform the zoning.

    I thought you would like jimmyeds installs. Keep in mind he is probably THE best in the country and so far no one can match his quality or custom metalwork.

    Ps Don't buy the cleaneffects use the savings and put towards mini splits for supplemental heating
    Appreciate the advice on the Mitsubishi mini splits. When I put in my zip code, the company that installed my XL20i system pops up at the top as a diamond dealer. They do have a great rep, so hopefully this initial furnace install was just a fluke. I also talked to them this past summer about a Waterfurnace system 7 ground based system, but unfortunately the fact that my current furnace caught fire and burned up, forced me to accelerate my plans and look at a quick air based solution.

    Btw, the XL950 is now throwing that 140.01 error again. Can't wait to get the communicating solution installed.

    My neighbor has a Mitsubishi mini split and loves it. I'll look into that for not only the room at the main level that needs it, but also as a replacement for the upstairs system with the 5kw heating strip.

    Awesome advice everyone. This forum rocks!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by carmon View Post
    you seem kinda harsh ..... its not that bad not everyone is perfect.......
    I would agree. I think these guys have been put in more of a bad light than they deserve. They are stepping up to the plate and will make it right and eat the labor cost of swapping out units, and then some. The 17.5" wide furnace mated with the 21" wide coil is actually quite acceptable according to the Trane installation manual. The drip tray consumes the outer few inches, so airflow is not restricted. That said, it does look odd, and I'm glad the modulation 100k BTU furnace going in will be 21" wide and match the coil.

  12. #52
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    I would not have installed a forced air LP furnace.

    Two heat pumps with electric strips totaling ~16kW ( 3, 3, 5, 5) [ or the radiant heat as back-up).
    _ K _ I _ S _ S
    _ .... K eep I t S imple & S incere


    No one has addressed the overall objectives. Seems like < 60,000 BTU/Hr may be required.
    Design temperature is likely ~18'F for Central / SouthEastern VA

    Given the stated Significant history of failures ( two piping incidents for radiant heating and burning up a furnace),
    I probably would have run Fast and Far Away from this job.

    It's either Simple or No Bid.
    My reputation is at Risk - and NOT every job is worth it.
    _ RISKS must be evaluated EVERY Day._

    _ Looks like a high probability of a losing proposition for any mechanical contractor in several aspects
    because it Violates the KISS Principle.
    Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  13. #53
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    Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  14. #54
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    I just got my LP bill from the last refill last week. I took 266.6 gallons to top off the tank, and the cost was $833.49. So that works out to $3. 13 per gallon...

    They have not ordered the XC95m yet, so if it makes better sense to match the outdoor 4ton XL20i with a TAM8A0C48 air handler, I can still get that changed.

    Would the cost of a TAM8 be less than the combined cost of the 100,000 BTU XC95m and the 4ton comfort coil I have now? I have radiant floor heat in the basement and master bath, and also a gas fire place in the living room that I can use for extreme low temps (which I have not seen in this area for at least 10 years).

    At what outdoor temp does a XL20i heat pump approach a COP of 1.0?

  15. #55
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    Here are the load calcs they did for my house:

    The page shows the first floor and basement:



    So if we take out the basement, which is heated via radiant floor heat (and only turned on when I entertain), it looks like I only need 43,481 BTU for heating the first floor. The original furnace was 120,000 BTU. Perhaps it was sized that way originally with the expectation that the basement, if ever finished, would be heated from that source as well?

    Here are the calcs for the 2nd floor:


  16. #56
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    You raise an interesting question about whether to go with a high eff air handler versus the XC95 mod furnace.

    Is there any likelihood that your location will ever have nat gas service?

    What other appliances if any in your home use propane fuel?

    The way you will be using your dual fuel system makes a furnace a very expensive air handler. Simply because you will want to stay off propane as much as possible for the cost savings.

    Anyone in your home object to HP heating?

    This may be a tough call.

    And why are you topping off your propane tank?

    IMO

  17. #57
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    My 10 year old 94% efficient Polaris water heater uses propane. This is what does the radiant floor heat in the master bath as well as the basement when used. My range is also gas powered. Finally, I got a 15kw backup generator that is also plumbed to the 500 gallon in ground tank.

    Natural gas service is not likely to ever happen due to how rural my area is.

    I'm on a schedule with the gas company where they just come and fill it automatically a few times a year based on historical use. I like to keep it on the full side in case of major storms/outages where I need fuel on hand for the generator.

    No one has objected yet to HP heating as it is a definite improvement not having a furnace at all for a couple of week while we waited for the new one to be installed.

  18. #58
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    Well I think you answered your question. Stay with the mod furnace.

    Good Luck!
    IMO

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by pclausen View Post
    I just got my LP bill from the last refill last week. I took 266.6 gallons to top off the tank, and the cost was $833.49. So that works out to $3. 13 per gallon...

    Would the cost of a TAM8 be less than the combined cost of the 100,000 BTU XC95m and the 4ton comfort coil I have now?
    I have radiant floor heat in the basement and master bath, and also a
    gas fire place in the living room that I can use for extreme low temps
    (which I have not seen in this area for at least 10 years).

    At what outdoor temp does a XL20i heat pump
    approach a COP of 1.0?
    About -15'F theoretically.

    Defrost cycle may be quite significant at +10'F.

    Design Temp seems low at +5'F.
    Does it go below +15'F >150 hours per year?
    Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by pclausen View Post
    The page shows the first floor and basement:



    So if we take out the basement, which is heated via radiant floor heat (and only turned on when I entertain),
    it looks like I only need 43,481 BTU for heating the first floor. The original furnace was 120,000 BTU.
    How was the Load Calc actually used in sizing the equipment?
    Designer Dan __ It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with Some Art. _ _ KEEP IT SIMPLE & SINCERE ___ __ www.mysimplifiedhvac.com ___ __ Define the Building Envelope & Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows & Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

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