ReplyShould have combustion air intake.
Not a very nice looking install overall.
Regular Guest
My old furnace (X90 120,000 BTU) finally bit the dust a few weeks ago. It was mated with a XE1000 10 SEER 4 ton outdoor unit.
New system that was just installed last week consisted of the following components:
4TWZ0048B1..........XL20i 4 ton heat pump
4TXCC008CC3HCB...Coil
TUH2B080A9V4.......XV95 80,000 BTU furnace
BAY24VRPAC52DA ...Relay Panel
BAYSEN01ATEMPA...Outdoor temp sensor
XL950...................Thermostat
I spent quite a bit of time with the sales rep from a very reputable Trane dealer discussing the pros and cons of going with the above combo vs. the fully communicating XC95m 100,000 BTU furnace, and he finally convinced me to go with the less expensive XV95 which was just as efficient as the XC95m, but lacked the communication ability, which the rest of the main components had (XL20i and XL950). Since the primary heat was going be from the heat pump, I figured that would be ok.
Well, as it turned out, on the day of the install (last Thursday/Friday), the installers had to "decommunicate" the outdoor unit since you can't have a mix of communicating and non-communicating main components. So the XL950 is wired to the relay panel using 3 wires, and the XV95 and XL20i are connected using the relay contacts, completely loosing the ability of the XL950 to discover the connected components, along with various other cool features a fully communicating system would have offered.
It really ticked me off that the sales rep stated that the XL20i would still be configured as communicating when the opposite is true.
Here are some shots of the install itself. First, here is the furnace and coil. They basically slid out the old furnace and coil and installed the new setup. They only had to add a short horizontal return extension as the new furnace and coil were a lot less wide than the units they were replacing. Notice how the furnace is even skinnier than the coil above it. The 100,000 BTU XC95m would have matched the width of the coil.
The outdoor unit. This thing is huge. Take a look at the 1.5ton carrier sitting next to it that cools the 2nd floor of my house.
And here is the relay panel. The installers ran the wires from the outside temp sensor up to the XL950 instead of connecting it directly to the relay panel? Is this considered best practice? The outdoor unit is consistently ready 7 degrees higher than the actual outdoor temp. I guess they never calibrated it?
At any rate, the morning after they left, I had the following error on the XL950:
It appears to be heat related? It went away this morning on its own. Not sure if I should be concerned about it or not?
I then noticed that the outdoor unit was running in heat pump stage 1 mode, even though the outdoor temp was 34 degrees, and it was supposed to run on LP below 40. So I went into the service menu and looked at the Lock-outs. This is the Icon I pressed:
No lockouts had been set, they were all disabled. I left them that way as I then discovered the dual fuel options as seen here:
I entered my electricity cost:
And propane cost:
I then entered my Furnace AFUE rating (95) and Heat Pump HSPF rating (9.0) and I was very surprised to see the thermostat recommend 0F as the optimal crossover point from HP to LP for heat as seen here:
http://www.cstone.net/~dk/xl950-9.jpg
So I instead manually set it to 35 degrees as seen here:
Sunday and Monday I was heating 100% with propane, but after that it began to switch between HP and LP as I would have expected as seen here:
More detailed info from Installer run history:
So overall, I guess things seems to be working now, although I need to calibrate the external sensor after making sure they did seal the hole where the wire comes through the basement wall. If they did not, that could account the higher than actual reading I suppose. But the installers appeared to have very little experience with the XL950 (and the XL20i) for that matter. I got it connected to my wifi myself, downloaded the latest software, and configured the dual-fuel cut over point, and will be calibrating the outdoor temp sensor.
I'm upset that I did not end up with at least a partially communicating system as promised. I have had a few emails back and fourth with the sales guy, and in hindsight would have paid the extra 10% for the XC95m furnace to have a fully communicating system and in fact suggested that they go ahead and make the swap for me to be a referable customer.
Is that unreasonable? Should I just suck it up and live with what I have?
Btw, which would be the most economical cut over point for me to switch from HP to LP for heating given my energy costs and equipment efficiencies? If there a formula I can plug my numbers into to get something other than 0F, which seems way low to me? I would have expected 40-50 degrees to have been more optimal. The sales rep said they generally set the cutover at 40.
The overall install was top notch as far as making everything air tight and running the new line set to the outdoor unit, but I just don't know about the non-communicating furnace as it dumps down all the other components, and the error that I got on day 2.
Professional Member*
Should have combustion air intake.
Not a very nice looking install overall.
"Hey Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort." And he says, "there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice. - Carl Spackler
Regular Guest
When you say combustion air intake, do you mean that a 2nd pipe should have been run through an exterior wall? The room the furnace sits in is about 1200 sq. ft.
I tried to calibrate the outdoor temp sensor, but the only allowed range is +/- 5 degrees, so I was only able to get it within 2 degrees of what it should be. I'm thinking that the fact that it is installed in an inside corner outside the basement above a window is contributing the the higher than actual temp reading.
Professional Member*
A lot of weight on that gas pipe. (yes I see the one strap)
No cap on the 3/4" condensate pipe.
Is the Pittsburgh knocked over on the back of that return duct?
Any screws in the duct?
Do you have to cut the tape on top of the coil each time you want to take the door off?
Are they the original screws in the coil door or replacement 5/16 screws?
Shame the flue and intake are directly in front of coil access.
Always here
Regular Guest
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Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 12-27-2012 at 05:28 AM. Reason: non AOP member
Professional Member*
I don't think your asking to much after seeing the install you got. You wanna pay for the upgrade they should make it happen. If they are a Trane dealer thier guys need training on the latest product's they install.
That one crooked Intake pipe is killing me aswell as the gas pipingcoil over hang
You should be asking for the upgrade cause you got the shiny lights but they don't do much
Professional Member*
Where is the air filter located? I don't see one....
Professional Member*
I would call the installing company back and ask to talk with the service manger or the owner and explain that you are not happy with the install!
I would ask for one of them to visit your home and look at the install. Any good company will make it right. If you were my customer, I would have talked to you about pros and cons on XC 95 and recommended it so it would be a fully commicating system. If the XC95 was installed would not have needed the control relay panel.
Please keep us posted! This is not the worst install I have seen but would not have passed my inspection of the final install. Just stress all the points that you are concerned with. See what say? I would look at how they handle the complaint. If they are a good company they should comply that the system install should be addressed and will make it right for you.
If anything else don't lose your cool yet. The salesman, service manger and or the owner might not be aware of how the install turned out. My installers would have never left a system like that because they no their would be hell to pay.
Professional Member
pendetim
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Professional Member*
You paid for a communicating system (as you were told by the sales rep) and you didn't receive a communicating system. Do you have any paperwork stating that you were suppose to get a communicating system?
I would call and speak to the owner/service manager and work out a plan to rectify the issue. Explain yourself and any decent company will work with you and solve this issue.
Regular Guest
Appreciate all the feedback guys! I will call and talk to them today.
To answer some of the questions raised above:
1. Yes, I would have to cut the tape in order to access the coil for cleaning. This pic also shows how the sealant used on the intake came loose and is why it is now at a tilt.
Same issue at the top with having to cut the tape.
2. They did use screws before applying the tape. Also, they were supposed to prep the return so that I could add a Trane CleanEffects later. The sales rep recommended installing that in the vertical portion of the return, which I can't do right now with the way the gas pipe is routed. The installer said to install it in the horizontal portion of the return, but would that not be an area of a lot of turbulence?
3. The only filter currently in the return is a 24x24x1 as seen here:
Location of outdoor temp sensor. Large hole to heated basement is not sealed. I think a better location for the temp sensor would have been where the red arrow is.
Pic from a distance showing the location of the outdoor temp sensor. Is this a good location? That wall is facing west.
Professional Member*
He stated he was getting the non communicating system. This is what you purchased.Originally Posted by Brent Ridley
I do believe your natural gas price is not correct.
Brian
Quality and Value Service and Repair
Professional Member*
Standing in front of the system, if you reach your hand in between the return duct and the furnace and touch the back corner of the vertical return duct, do you feel a flange (about 1/4") sticking up/out? This needs to be hammered over, it looks as if it may not be. Not a good pic of that area.
The pic that shows the house from a distance. What is that large round cement object that looks like it protrudes through the deck? A barbecue?
Always here
Regular Guest
You're right Brian. I was using the back button to snap the pics. I went through the process again and the result is still the same, a recommendation of 0F as the cut over from HP to LP. Here's the shot showing what I entered as my cost, just under $3/gallon for LP.
Regular Guest
Yes, there is a flange there that sticks out about 1/4" that runs up about 10". I'll be sure to point that out to them as well.
That is a pier I poured for my telescope for taking long exposure pictures of objects in the night sky. That was a lot of work pouring myself!The pic that shows the house from a distance. What is that large round cement object that looks like it protrudes through the deck? A barbecue?
Professional Member*
Very cool telescope.
Yes that flange needs to be corrected asap.
If you develop a list of what is said on here that should be corrected, then present that to the contractor you will have things repaired. This site is the #1 site for technical excellence. Many many members are very knowledgeable
Always here
Professional Member*
He said he was mislead. The sales rep told him that part of the system would still be communicating. We, as contractors, know that this is not a possibility but to a homeowner this sounds plausible.
Not to mention, installing a non-communicating XL20i is like getting a high end sports car with an automatic transmission. You're castrating the system. You're taking away all the benefits of having a very efficient "true" two stage system.
Professional Member*
1 return for a 4 Ton XL20i? I know the size is 25x25 but do you know what size flex is tied into it? I am assuming that black flex in 1st picture tied into top of return ductwork connects grille to duct. Or is it ducted metal all the way to return grille?
Professional Member*
Thats better
You're right Brian. I was using the back button to snap the pics. I went through the process again and the result is still the same, a recommendation of 0F as the cut over from HP to LP. Here's the shot showing what I entered as my cost, just under $3/gallon for LP.
Quality and Value Service and Repair
Regular Guest
It is ducted metal all the way to the return grille. Look at the pic below. The blue represents the return and the blue with the yellow surround is the 24x24 return opening itself laid flat for illustration. I would say the smallest opening between the 24x24 return filter and the furnace entry is about 25x13 give or take.
The red is the supply. There is basically a single main ducted artery if you will, that starts out as 20x10, then goes to 15x10 and finally 10x8 at the ends. The ducts that connect the the supply vents are all solid round 6" diameter ones except for the pantry and half bath to the far right, which is connected via flex 6" duct.
The black flex you see is part of the connection to my ERV. Here's a shot from below the ERV showing it's connections for the furnace return.
I used to have the ERV hooked up to turn on with the furnace blower motor and kept its speed at a medium setting using the dial shown here. With my new variable speed furnace, I'm wondering if there is a better way to connect this unit?
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