Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 13 of 25

Thread: Wittgenstein

Hybrid View

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    432

    Wittgenstein

    Wittgenstein argued that we can't know our own private experiences.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Quote Originally Posted by thermophysics View Post
    Wittgenstein argued that we can't know our own private experiences.
    Wingincannotpronouncethatname is a nut.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    432
    Wittgenstein might have back tracked from his Tractatus but he did come back at us in a substantially meaningful way with his Philosophical Investigations.

    But consider some thoughts offered up in support of Wittgenstein:

    Where does hypnosis fit in? Dr. Phil Zimbardo of Stanford University was able to show that the mind very easily distorts reality. One volunteer was asked to smell ammonia and believed it to be perfume after he was hypnotized.

    In another experiment, students were asked to play the parts of prisoners and jailers. This experiment had to be terminated because the students started confusing this with reality.

    The American Physiologist Benjamin Libet carried out a series of open-brain experiments on fully conscious patients. He found that if the area of the brain associated with receiving the sensation of a scratching on the skin of one hand received a small voltage then the same sensation could be simulated.

    Also, if the voltage was applied to the relevant area of the brain 200 milliseconds after the skin stimulation then there was no reported sensation at all - the real skin sensation was edited out of the neuro-system-signalling.

    Libet then found that if the brain was electrically stimulated milliseconds before the skin was scratched then the patient would report having felt the skin sensation first before the brain stimulated sensation - the signals were completely reversed.

    When the patients were told what was happening they refused to accept the descriptions - they protested that they know what they were feeling and what they were not feeling and no doctor can fool them with stories about how they might have got it wrong.

    This means that our perceptions of reality can very easily be altered. For instance, just the slightest of magetic fields applied to the brain can cause the brain to reverse the feeling resulting from the knowledge of being alone coupled with feeling slightly afraid in a dark room to the feeling of not being alone but of being accompanied in the room and by someone, unseen, who is also very friendly which all creates a sudden sense of euphoria and calm. All just with the application of a tiny magnetic field to a certain part of the head.

    Such experiments confirm Wittgenstein's claim that we cannot KNOW our private experiences. Because we cannot get them wrong. What we can get wrong instead are our guesses at what caused them and, of their causes, we actually, as individuals, have no knowledge. Hume might have today said that via the experience of constant conjunction of events observed our brains overlay the conjoining experiences with an interpretive heuristic that only tries to model the world but can't actually make any epistemic claims about it.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Quote Originally Posted by thermophysics View Post
    Wittgenstein might have back tracked from his Tractatus but he did come back at us in a substantially meaningful way with his Philosophical Investigations.

    But consider some thoughts offered up in support of Wittgenstein:

    Where does hypnosis fit in? Dr. Phil Zimbardo of Stanford University was able to show that the mind very easily distorts reality. One volunteer was asked to smell ammonia and believed it to be perfume after he was hypnotized.

    In another experiment, students were asked to play the parts of prisoners and jailers. This experiment had to be terminated because the students started confusing this with reality.

    The American Physiologist Benjamin Libet carried out a series of open-brain experiments on fully conscious patients. He found that if the area of the brain associated with receiving the sensation of a scratching on the skin of one hand received a small voltage then the same sensation could be simulated.

    Also, if the voltage was applied to the relevant area of the brain 200 milliseconds after the skin stimulation then there was no reported sensation at all - the real skin sensation was edited out of the neuro-system-signalling.

    Libet then found that if the brain was electrically stimulated milliseconds before the skin was scratched then the patient would report having felt the skin sensation first before the brain stimulated sensation - the signals were completely reversed.

    When the patients were told what was happening they refused to accept the descriptions - they protested that they know what they were feeling and what they were not feeling and no doctor can fool them with stories about how they might have got it wrong.

    This means that our perceptions of reality can very easily be altered. For instance, just the slightest of magetic fields applied to the brain can cause the brain to reverse the feeling resulting from the knowledge of being alone coupled with feeling slightly afraid in a dark room to the feeling of not being alone but of being accompanied in the room and by someone, unseen, who is also very friendly which all creates a sudden sense of euphoria and calm. All just with the application of a tiny magnetic field to a certain part of the head.

    Such experiments confirm Wittgenstein's claim that we cannot KNOW our private experiences. Because we cannot get them wrong. What we can get wrong instead are our guesses at what caused them and, of their causes, we actually, as individuals, have no knowledge. Hume might have today said that via the experience of constant conjunction of events observed our brains overlay the conjoining experiences with an interpretive heuristic that only tries to model the world but can't actually make any epistemic claims about it.
    Dear God, that is horrific. I cannot imagine cutting open heads and scratching the brains to see how the victim reacts. Sick.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    432
    Well, these are people who were already scheduled for open brain surgery at a Hospital in the USA that is also highly reputable. The brain has no sense of pain and only interprets touches and voltages as signals coming from somewhere in the body. But no matter how disgusting it seems - the implications regarding our inabilities to know our private experiences remain profound.

    A deep sea diver once told me that during training, his first deep dive, he was asked to do a math problem on a chalk board and was also asked to write his name on it. He was asked, while down there, if he was happy with what he had written. He was shown the chalk board when they got back to the surface - he says he could not read his own name let alone understand what his answer was to the math problem. Seems he thought he could know his own experiences and yet it seems he got them wrong.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Quote Originally Posted by thermophysics View Post
    Well, these are people who were already scheduled for open brain surgery at a Hospital in the USA that is also highly reputable. The brain has no sense of pain and only interprets touches and voltages as signals coming from somewhere in the body. But no matter how disgusting it seems - the implications regarding our inabilities to know our private experiences remain profound.

    A deep sea diver once told me that during training, his first deep dive, he was asked to do a math problem on a chalk board and was also asked to write his name on it. He was asked, while down there, if he was happy with what he had written. He was shown the chalk board when they got back to the surface - he says he could not read his own name let alone understand what his answer was to the math problem. Seems he thought he could know his own experiences and yet it seems he got them wrong.
    You are cutting people's heads open and poking their brains and shocking their brains? I am horrified, you may have interesting results, but I am horrified.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Okay i may have overcome some of my initial shock. I guess if you cut open some one's skull while they are alive to expose the brain, you might be able to poke one part of the brain with a stick to make a leg twitch or another part of the brain to make an arm twitch. But that is horrific. Ghoulish.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    432
    I'm with you on that - the idea does come with a pretty strong yuk factor.

    But I doubt anyone was shocking anyone's brain. The voltages applied would be no higher than are ordinarily generated by and within the brain itself.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    4,247
    I wonder if their brain would fizz and bubble if you put salt on it like a snail?
    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what will never be. (Thomas Jefferson 1816)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    432
    Lol, to add to Slinger's yuk experience - I guess

    I think it is that the slug/snail has muscle that it can curl up - as well as maybe that is gets dehydrated rather quickly. A brain couldn't curl up - and it is under a fair amount of blood pressure too. It may or may not fizz - I don't know - but I imagine the patient would report all sorts of funny phantom visions, feelings, smells or sounds all being produced by the electrical activity caused by the salt reacting with the cerebral fluid.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    6,876
    Salted brains. A delicacy up here.
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,959
    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    Salted brains. A delicacy up here.
    Well probably, but you guys beat little innocent baby seals to death with bats.

    Of course I am joking.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Boise, ID
    Posts
    4,247
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Well probably, but you guys beat little innocent baby seals to death with bats.
    Yeah you Texans should talk, picking on those poor serpents. Sick I tell you...sick. LOL

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZKQueCcHQ8
    If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what will never be. (Thomas Jefferson 1816)

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Comfortech Show Promo Image

Related Forums

Plumbing Talks | Contractor Magazine
Forums | Electrical Construction & Maintenance (EC&M) Magazine
Comfortech365 Virtual Event