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  1. #846
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
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    Kaufman county, Texas
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    9,982
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Thanks to the encouragement of the anti-second amendment people on this thread I just went online and became a member of the NRA. Firearms have been a hobby as well as a self defense thing for me for over 40 years now. I am a police academy grad and a former reserve deputy. I never became an NRA member in the past because I consider them too liberal on the second amendment. I do belong to the Second Amendment Foundation.

    Well, the NRA can use my membership funds and an increased membership since they are the larger pro-gun organization. I may disagree with them to a degree but they still have some clout in Washington as well as in each state. So, thanks to the posts of the gun control people in this thread I joined up.

    I am considering paying for additional memberships for each of my family members. My wife, two sons and two daughters are firearms owners and we all have our state concealed carry permits and have for many years now. The NRA is reporting that their membership numbers have gone up quite a bit since the politicians started threatening more gun control.

    I will not give up any of my firearms. Just imagine, my lame government is going to make me a felon and I have done nothing more than continue to enjoy my hobby and right to self defense according to the second amendment. I view any additional laws as unconstitutional and will resist along with many, many others. Meanwhile, any new gun control will be sure to go to the Supreme Court.

    Other than resisting, supporting the NRA and contacting my senators is what I can do right now.

    Hugh B
    Good for you. I am renewing membership also.

    https://membership.nrahq.org/forms/s...0&hid=20285130
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  2. #847
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,297
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I agree with you and would like it if there were a competitive league around my area.

    I'm not aware of one.


    The point that Brian and mcjo are making, however is that we should have TRAINING in the use of a gun. Even guys like you and I who have owned and shot guns since we were children (I started shooting before I was 5 as have both of my boys)

    None of that experience or proficiency means anything to them, they want us to have a "shooter's license" or some other piece of paper in our wallets, equivalent to a driver's license that PROVES that we meet some minimum government standard.

    Now, both of us know guns and could likely pass any "training course" out there, but we also know that there are many who could not do so.

    Personally, I'm not opposed to training, per se, but we need to find a standard.

    Does everyone, as Brian said, need to be trained to the same standard as police?

    Should there be a lesser standard to train citizens to?
    As a police academy grad and former reserve officer who continues to go shooting at police ranges I can tell you that the actual percentage of firearms training at POST Certified Police Academy's is pretty little. Many police officers don't actually spend any more time at the range or with upgrade training than is required by their department and that is generally not much. Don't try to claim that I am not up to date with my information. Several family members are current police officers and one is a range officer for a local department. And, all are pro-citizen carry officers.

    I take additional combat handgun training at private shooting schools (usually operated by current or former police officers) and that is where you find the dedicated to firearms and combat training officers.

  3. #848
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,416
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    As a police academy grad and former reserve officer who continues to go shooting at police ranges I can tell you that the actual percentage of firearms training at POST Certified Police Academy's is pretty little. Many police officers don't actually spend any more time at the range or with upgrade training than is required by their department and that is generally not much. Don't try to claim that I am not up to date with my information. Several family members are current police officers and one is a range officer for a local department. And, all are pro-citizen carry officers.

    I take additional combat handgun training at private shooting schools (usually operated by current or former police officers) and that is where you find the dedicated to firearms and combat training officers.

    I suspected that to be the case, honestly.

    As with most jobs, a gun is just one of the many tools that a police officer must have a degree of proficiency with.

    It's no different with our own jobs. Gauges, thermometers, electrical meters, hand tools, duct tools, torches, vacuum pumps.....

    No disrespect intended, but maybe there's a 'magical aura' for lack of a better term, that surrounds the uniform of the police and their gun belt that makes them "appear" to have a higher standard of training and knowledge than the rest of us do.

  4. #849
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,297
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I suspected that to be the case, honestly.

    As with most jobs, a gun is just one of the many tools that a police officer must have a degree of proficiency with.

    It's no different with our own jobs. Gauges, thermometers, electrical meters, hand tools, duct tools, torches, vacuum pumps.....

    No disrespect intended, but maybe there's a 'magical aura' for lack of a better term, that surrounds the uniform of the police and their gun belt that makes them "appear" to have a higher standard of training and knowledge than the rest of us do.
    Your thoughts are right on the money.

  5. #850
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    880
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I agree with you and would like it if there were a competitive league around my area.

    I'm not aware of one.


    The point that Brian and mcjo are making, however is that we should have TRAINING in the use of a gun. Even guys like you and I who have owned and shot guns since we were children (I started shooting before I was 5 as have both of my boys)

    None of that experience or proficiency means anything to them, they want us to have a "shooter's license" or some other piece of paper in our wallets, equivalent to a driver's license that PROVES that we meet some minimum government standard.

    Now, both of us know guns and could likely pass any "training course" out there, but we also know that there are many who could not do so.

    Personally, I'm not opposed to training, per se, but we need to find a standard.

    Does everyone, as Brian said, need to be trained to the same standard as police?

    Should there be a lesser standard to train citizens to?

    Is it going to be like the epa608 cert? I bet it would be.......

  6. #851
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Kaufman county, Texas
    Posts
    9,982
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I suspected that to be the case, honestly.

    As with most jobs, a gun is just one of the many tools that a police officer must have a degree of proficiency with.

    It's no different with our own jobs. Gauges, thermometers, electrical meters, hand tools, duct tools, torches, vacuum pumps.....

    No disrespect intended, but maybe there's a 'magical aura' for lack of a better term, that surrounds the uniform of the police and their gun belt that makes them "appear" to have a higher standard of training and knowledge than the rest of us do.
    Police are people too. Nothing special about them as humans, they shoot and miss, shoot accidentally, fail to shoot when they should, and shoot the wrong person by mistake.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  7. #852
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,297
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Is it going to be like the epa608 cert? I bet it would be.......


    We simply do not put a training requirement on the Bill Of Rights! Just as we don't have a reading and writing or literacy requirement to vote. No American should need any kind of certification to practice a right!

  8. #853
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    2,297
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Police are people too. Nothing special about them as humans, they shoot and miss, shoot accidentally, fail to shoot when they should, and shoot the wrong person by mistake.
    At the academy they are taught over and over that their number one priority is to go home safe to their family each day. What does than tell you about your need to take responsibility for your own defense?

    You Are Your Own First Responder! When my wife or daughter (both carry firearms daily) are their own first responders I want them to have the tools that get the job done.

  9. #854
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Posts
    2,265
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Okay, Corny Puppet. NRA is and has always been very concerned with supporting law enforcement of existing laws against criminals.

    That is a primary point of the NRA. Your post is slanderous.

    FYI opinion is not considered to be slanderous by definition of law.

    Sorry you feel that way but I also have a right to my opinion of them.

    And from what I've seen I don't see any reason to change my mind.

    They had their opportunity to be seen in a different light with this last massacre but their response was typical of their agenda and woefully short on any real solutions or compromise.

  10. #855
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,416
    Quote Originally Posted by Elfshadow View Post
    Is it going to be like the epa608 cert? I bet it would be.......
    It'd be like any government paper.

    Worthless in the real world

    A driver's license doesn't mean that you know how to drive on the roads, but on a closed and controlled course.

    An EPA certificate means that you were able to memorize a few dates and other facts.

    A mandatory hunter's safety card means that you've been told to read the game laws book and not to shoot your hunting buddy.

    None of these are truly meaningful as they require no re-certification, no continuing education, nothing TRULY meaningful.


    I would not be opposed to a baseline training course.

    Basic gun safety. None of us old shooters can be reminded often enough of the need for it, I think.
    Basic Use of Force training. WHEN can you shoot and when should the gun stay in the holster.
    Basic shooting competency. Prove that you're able to hit a target at an appropriate range for the gun you brought.

    Those of us who have been shooting for a long time would breeze this class and could even be used by the instructor as a 'helper' for those who struggle on the ranges.

    If something like this is to be meaningful, however, you've got to have periodic recertifications.

    Maybe, someone like jmac who shoots competitively could just provide proof of his continued involvement in that shooting sport.


    Not all that different from NATE certifications in our own trade.

    Whatever your opinion of the NATE organization, the idea, the concept is a sound one, IMO

  11. #856
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    880
    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    We simply do not put a training requirement on the Bill Of Rights! Just as we don't have a reading and writing or literacy requirement to vote. No American should need any kind of certification to practice a right!
    That was meant to be sarcastic...... I think the epa608 test is a joke, and just a money grab.

  12. #857
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    14,208
    Quote Originally Posted by jpsmith1cm View Post
    I agree with you and would like it if there were a competitive league around my area.

    I'm not aware of one.


    The point that Brian and mcjo are making, however is that we should have TRAINING in the use of a gun. Even guys like you and I who have owned and shot guns since we were children (I started shooting before I was 5 as have both of my boys)

    None of that experience or proficiency means anything to them, they want us to have a "shooter's license" or some other piece of paper in our wallets, equivalent to a driver's license that PROVES that we meet some minimum government standard.

    Now, both of us know guns and could likely pass any "training course" out there, but we also know that there are many who could not do so.

    Personally, I'm not opposed to training, per se, but we need to find a standard.

    Does everyone, as Brian said, need to be trained to the same standard as police?

    Should there be a lesser standard to train citizens to?
    Im not sure I want to be trained like the police, they shoot like crap. There marksmanship standard is pathetically low. I doubt they put more than a couple thousand rounds down range in any given year mainly due to budget constraints.
    It's the fifth of January and all ready I have shot 184 rounds down range(64 Wednesday night and 120 today~~today was the annual "Money Match", I actually shot against one of the shooters from Top Shot, John Guida <sp>, he was the guy that had to retire early because of knee problem and ya, he cleaned my clock and just about everyone elses to. He's unbelievably fast) and Wednesday night I have another match.

    training takes money, period. The police get paid to train, I don't. And a good weekend course probably won't make anyone a better shooter.
    BEING AN ADULT

    is the dumbest thing I have ever done

  13. #858
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,416
    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Police are people too. Nothing special about them as humans, they shoot and miss, shoot accidentally, fail to shoot when they should, and shoot the wrong person by mistake.
    I never said that they weren't.

    A reasonable person realizes this.

    Many people, however, seem to invest a great power and wisdom in that badge and gun belt.

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