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  1. #2107
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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    Just curious.... but did you get moderated or something......lol

    anyhow...

    Folks like GA and Hugh are pretty much cut from the same cloth.... and so are most of these other 2nd amendment guys......

    But I believe GAs post above really sums up these patriots true nature......

    "A BIG clue will happen if BHO and the DEMS get the guns. If they do... well find a way over the border with your cash. If they do not... well it will be that line in the sand of hope all will see."

    What the above says to me is..... When the SHTF the 2nd amendment patriot gets going....going as fast as they can away from the battle.....

    "Lets get our money and head for canada or mexico where we can regroup and wage our internet forum battle against our oppressive government from another country"

    "They will pry my gun from my cold dead hands.... that is if I have a heart attack or something and die while holding a gun.... otherwise...when they come for them I will just hand them over like a good little sheeple"

    "I am a true blue american patriot and I am willing to say anything over the internet"
    "No soldier ever accomplished anything by dieing for his country... a soldier accomplishes something by making the other soldier die for his country."
    George Patton

    Corny... there are fights to fight head on... and there are fights to fight through gorilla/insurgent warfare... And as we know; history suggests gorilla/insurgent warfare decides wars... not battles.





    Do not put attitudes, thoughts, words or actions into an expectation of what GA would or would not do...







    You will make a fool of yourself...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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  2. #2108
    Join Date
    May 2000
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    Rochester, NY, USA
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    14,485
    I only drink a little, but when I do
    I turn into another person and THAT person drinks a lot

  3. #2109
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
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    Helena, Montana
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    2,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Here is a scenario for you highly trained and trusted CCW guys that insist on being able to take any life around you with a flick of a finger.
    Okay here's my last attempt. Brian, the FACT you need to get through your bias is that "CCW guys" do not want to take anyone's life around them. On the contrary, the reason for caring is to protect lives.
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  4. #2110
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by corny View Post
    Im not against gun ownership.... I just think that something needs to be done to stop all this killing.... and as americans are not going to take the time to demand that government get tougher on crime....or start killing these madmen instead of just running them thru the revolving door that our penal system is.... then getting guns off the street is our only option.

    I also get sick of the 2nd amendment argument being thrown out there that we need guns to protect ourselves against a tyrannical government...... I mean seriously........ do you know how silly that is in this day and time.

    This country is coming together in a big way to protect their rights to own a gun and to be able to gun down kids carrying soda and candy..... why the hell dont people come together like this and demand that child abusers be sentanced to life....that violent criminals be executed.......... that we actually do something about crime.......

    I will bet money that these gun and mag bans laws will all fail....and when they do the argument will be over...... people will have their guns...... and all this gun owner talk about finding alternative ways to prevent guns from getting into the hands of people who clearly shouldnt have them will be over. The school safety issue will also fade too.... mark my words...

    This will be because the gun owners will have gotten what they wanted....and they will just say....to hell with crime and the safety of school kids....... Ive got my gun back....I dont care what happens to the kid down the street or the old lady at the atm....or the gang bangers shooting thru the windows of some house in the hood...missing their target but killing a couple of kids.

    Selfishness..... its a sin...and thats what these 2nd amendment folks are..... just selfish people whos only concern is their right to own a gun....... its not the safety of others..... its not the safety of this country...... its.. "I like guns and I want to be able to own any gun I like".....
    1) You are very naive if you think government can be trusted or can't change for the worse.
    2) Firearms ownership is at an all time high and murder by firearm at an all time low. The so called emergency need for drastic gun control is a false flag.
    3) The proposed firearms laws have been proven to NOT decrease crime. So, let's do something that works not what is proven to not work.
    4) I have and you have a human right for self-defense. Declawing the cat does not help protect it from the Pit Bull. Don't take my firearms.

    I could go on but these four are all we need. The Second Amendment is not to be taken lightly. You don't seem to fully appreciate the Bill of Rights. When I was a deputy we had the bill of rights pounded into us followed by a series of court decisions on Search and Seizure. We were taught not to trample peoples rights in an effort to get the bad guys. Most cops are not concerned about those of us who are CCW carriers even if we are carrying one of the so called evil semi-auto weapons and a bunch of extra magazines containing 15 rounds each.

  5. #2111
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    Mar 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Brian, I am a former reserve deputy sheriff for a large county. I attended and graduated from the police academy and became a POST certified officer. Served for several years after certfying.

    Response training included going thru a training series called "Shoot Don't Shoot". An amazing interactive computer driven shooting decision making series. We faced a white wall where a situtation was projected on the wall with people in buildings, alleyways, car stops, you name it. We had our holstered sidearms and a large class of students sitting behind us. Senior instructor officers lined the classroom walls. Speakers provided sound as necessary including screams, children crying, whatever....

    When presented with an action situtation we yelled orders, made demands (to the people on the screen) and made life-death decisions including firing our weapons according to our determination. Not all situtations required firing. Sometimes the innocent were shot. We went through dozens of these. After each one we spent at least an hour discussing what we did right, did wrong and listened to senior instructors give advice.

    Our pulse rates soared, breathing quickened and I even lost sleep as we all experienced these situtations. About as real as one can get without going thru the real thing. Boy!!! This was a valueable series for most of us and I continue to rewind some of those lessons in my mind almost daily. When I carry a gun (a lot of the time) I am very aware of the possibilities and the responsibility. This is not a computer game and neither was our computer training.

    Back to your example. Just as J pointed out to you, every situtation is highly variable and has lots of small differences that add up to each situtation being what we call an "On View" decision. That is very important. That is why you really can't judge another officer or shooter as to if it was a good shooting or bad shooting very easily. Each shooting is highly individual.

    Granted, not everyone is the type to willingly enter one of these situtations. Not everyone is capable of making good decisions under difficult circumstances. However, one can learn how to best evaluate and act given the limited time and information. Mistakes will be made.

    Most CCW carriers will not choose to actively involve themselves. Most will limit themselves to refusing to be a victim without taking offensive action against a shooter. However, some of us have the background, willingness and ability to do what a cop would do. Keep in mind (and I work with lots of cops) many cops will not actively engage an active shooter. We are all individuals and make our own decisions for each "On View" situtation we face.
    I have a lot of respect for cops and the training they must undergo but I have to ask; how can we trust that a CCW Holder will act in accordance to his skill level when coming upon the situation I described? They have no formal training like you described and little to no experience that is even close to an officer’s. Do we just give these guys guns and hope they act professionally?

    Of course J can answer the question properly because he had time to think about it and doesn’t have ounces of adrenaline squirting into his bloodstream. But what about the yahoo (assuming J is not one) that carries a gun because he wants to save the world.

  6. #2112
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    Apr 2007
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    Kaufman county, Texas
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Here is a scenario for you highly trained and trusted CCW guys that insist on being able to take any life around you with a flick of a finger.

    It’s late at night and you are walking down the street. You approach an ally and see a guy holding a gun on another person apparently robbing him. You take cover behind a wall, draw your weapon and aim it at the gunman.

    At this moment you have to make the judgment call whether the gunman has intensions of shooting the victim or whether the gunman is just using his gun to get the victim to comply. I think I know what a policeman would do at that moment but what would you highly trained, superior to policeman guys do?
    I don't carry, but if I did that IS NOT how I would react at all. So the rest of your scenario-question is moot.

    I would not draw a gun. I would get back out of the line of site, or further [I fully expect i would keep walking away] and draw my cellphone for 911. I am not in any real danger, and don't understand what is going on.

    Recently explained to a relative of mine, might help some of you understand also:

    My guns are to protect me, my truck, my other tools, and my property. NOT to intercede in any activity I might stumble across, not police anything at all other than me and mine.

    Now of course I would protect another, but only in the case it was a very very extreme clear matter it is both a necessary and justifiable intervention. If someone is apparently robbing the store clerk while I am pumping gas, I am sorry but that is not my problem. I'll try to get a license plate number and a description as they get away. And remember to get my receipt.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "I say we just nuke them from space, that is the only way to be sure". Winch from ALIENS, forgot her name.

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

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    My front door is locked. For your personal protection.

  7. #2113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    seriously, your not all that smart are you. First: How do you know this is a robbery??? How do you know the guy holding the gun is NOT an undercover cop holding a drug dealer? how do you know, the guy holding the gun was not, initially the victim and he wrestled the gun away from the bad guy which he is now holding for police

    here is what I WOULD DO. move to cover, draw my cell phone and call 911. MY ONLY DUTY AT THIS POINT IS TO BE A GOOD WITNESS. AFTER, I have police on the phone and tell them whats happening, I say "I am a licensed CCW holder and I have my gun, I waring a (describe yourself to the dispatcher) I have eyes on a guy/girl with a gun, he/she is waring (describe the bad guy to the dispatcher) I will hold my ground but request further instructions......then do whatever the dispatcher says. if the cops show up while your standing there, HOLSTER YOUR GUN IMMEDIATELY AND PUT YOUR HANDS UP. (that way you don't get shot by accident) then do whatever the cop tells you do.


    Jesus, you keep making up stupid scenarios to try and trap one of us Law abiding citizens, it ain't going to work. But nice try
    I have to ask: Is anyone on this forum that disagrees with you smarter than you? Is how someone agrees with you your litmus test on intelligence?

    As for the scenario: If a cop came upon a situation like that I would assume they could recognize that when a cop draws down on someone they do not stand within close proximity to them and converse with them. Secondly, if a victim got a gun away from a perp and was standing up close to the perp conversing with him I doubt it would be done in a calm fashion. That would indicate a victim becoming a perp.

    I didn’t ask if you would shoot on sight. I simply asked what you would do. What’s so stupid about that question?

  8. #2114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I have a lot of respect for cops and the training they must undergo but I have to ask; how can we trust that a CCW Holder will act in accordance to his skill level when coming upon the situation I described? They have no formal training like you described and little to no experience that is even close to an officer’s. Do we just give these guys guns and hope they act professionally?

    Of course J can answer the question properly because he had time to think about it and doesn’t have ounces of adrenaline squirting into his bloodstream. But what about the yahoo (assuming J is not one) that carries a gun because he wants to save the world.
    Very simple. We have many years of experience with those who are CCW carriers and have thousands and thousands of CCW experiences in crime situtations to go by. So, we don't have to guess or speculate. It turns out that the shootem up situtations you envision simply do not happen. In fact, most of the time when a CCW holder shows a weapon the bad guy shoots himself or gives up.

    Criminals are basically cowards. When the police showed up the Sandy Hook shooter immediately shot himself. Jacob Roberts at the Clackamas Town Center immediately killed himself when a CCW holder showed up and pointed a pistol in his direction. James Holmes in Aurora at the theatre immediately gave up when confronted by armed cops. This goes on time after time with CCW holders or cops not firiing a shot.

    Experience shows that the wild west situtation predicted by you people simply does not happen. When Florida allowed CCW for the general population, I think it was in the mid 1980s it was predicted it would turn into a wild west state. That did not happen but crime dropped big time and almost instantly. The worst crime is in big cities where it is for the most part "gun free".

  9. #2115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    I don't carry, but if I did that IS NOT how I would react at all. So the rest of your scenario-question is moot.

    I would not draw a gun. I would get back out of the line of site, or further [I fully expect i would keep walking away] and draw my cellphone for 911. I am not in any real danger, and don't understand what is going on.

    Recently explained to a relative of mine, might help some of you understand also:

    My guns are to protect me, my truck, my other tools, and my property. NOT to intercede in any activity I might stumble across, not police anything at all other than me and mine.

    Now of course I would protect another, but only in the case it was a very very extreme clear matter it is both a necessary and justifiable intervention. If someone is apparently robbing the store clerk while I am pumping gas, I am sorry but that is not my problem. I'll try to get a license plate number and a description as they get away. And remember to get my receipt.
    Everyone carries for different reasons. Yours are only yours and have little bearing on the multitude of people that would be carrying if the NRA got their way with the law.

  10. #2116
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    Apr 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Everyone carries for different reasons. Yours are only yours and have little bearing on the multitude of people that would be carrying if the NRA got their way with the law.
    The NRA does not promote people carrying firearms. Get that straight. The NRA promotes the Second Amendment and your right to decide for yourself if you want to take on that responsibility of carrying and protecting yourself and family. That is a big difference.

    Don't misrepresent the NRA like the major media does! At least be honest in this issue.

  11. #2117
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    Jan 2001
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    8,234
    In fact, most of the time when a CCW holder shows a weapon the bad guy shoots himself or gives up.

    yea right.....lol

    what blog did you get that off of......
    YOU SHALL REAP WHAT YOU HAVE _______ SOWN

  12. #2118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    Very simple. We have many years of experience with those who are CCW carriers and have thousands and thousands of CCW experiences in crime situtations to go by. So, we don't have to guess or speculate. It turns out that the shootem up situtations you envision simply do not happen. In fact, most of the time when a CCW holder shows a weapon the bad guy shoots himself or gives up.

    Criminals are basically cowards. When the police showed up the Sandy Hook shooter immediately shot himself. Jacob Roberts at the Clackamas Town Center immediately killed himself when a CCW holder showed up and pointed a pistol in his direction. James Holmes in Aurora at the theatre immediately gave up when confronted by armed cops. This goes on time after time with CCW holders or cops not firiing a shot.

    Experience shows that the wild west situtation predicted by you people simply does not happen. When Florida allowed CCW for the general population, I think it was in the mid 1980s it was predicted it would turn into a wild west state. That did not happen but crime dropped big time and almost instantly. The worst crime is in big cities where it is for the most part "gun free".
    If this is so abundantly clear to police officers across the nation (since these stats are publicly shared between precincts) why aren’t police in general publicly supporting CCW laws across the nation right now through the media? Do cops want high crime for job security or do they want low crime as they espouse?

  13. #2119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hugh B View Post
    The NRA does not promote people carrying firearms. .
    Doesn't the NRA promote the right to carry in all 50 states? If so, that is in essence increasing the number of people that carry many fold.

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