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  1. #1613
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    Under the pseudonym "A British Bostonian," the Baptist preacher John Allen warned the British what would happen if they attempted "to make the Americans subject to their slavery." "This bloody scene can never be executed but at the expense of the destruction of England, and you will find, my Lord, that the AMERICANS WILL NOT SUBMIT TO BE SLAVES, they KNOW THE USE OF THE GUN, and the military art, as well as any of his Majesty's troops at St. James's, and where his Majesty has one soldier, who art in general the refuse of the earth, America can produce fifty, free men, and all volunteers, and raise a more potent army of men in three weeks, than England can in three years." Even Charles Lee, a British military man, observed in a widely circulated pamphlet that "the Yeomanry of America ... are ACCUSTOMED FROM THEIR INFANCY TO FIRE ARMS; they are EXPERT IN THE USE OF THEM:--Whereas the lower and middle people of England are, by the tyranny of certain laws almost as ignorant in the use of a musket, as they are of the ancient Catepulta." The Continental Congress echoed this theme in its declaration of July 1775. "On the sword, therefore, we are compelled to rely for protection. Should victory declare in your favor, yet men TRAINED TO ARMS FROM THEIR INFANCY, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest." Further, "in Britain, where the maxims of freedom were still known, but where luxury and dissipation had diminished the wonted reverence for them, the attack of tyranny has been carried on in a more secret and indirect manner: Corruption has been employed to undermine them. The Americans are not enervated by effeminacy, like the inhabitants of India; nor debauched by luxury, like those of Great-Britain." In writing the Federalist Papers James Madison drew a similar contrast. Noting "the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation," he observed that in Europe "the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." Years later Timothy Dwight testified to the strength and durability of this belief when he wrote that "to trust arms in the hands of the people at large has, in Europe, been believed ... to be an experiment fraught only with danger. Here by a long trial it has been proved to be perfectly harmless.... If the government be equitable; if it be reasonable in its exaction's; if proper attention be paid to the education of children in knowledge and religion, few men will be disposed to use arms, unless for their amusement, and for the defense of themselves and their country."
    __________________________________________________ _______________________
    “Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards". - Vernon Law

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  2. #1614
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    Sep 2005
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    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by barbar View Post
    Ah thank you, a spin doctor, do they get paid plenty?

    I speak about you bit and pieces and ask a question, I can shot down down for asking, at the same time you are asking me to learn. Should I or any other believe, only one side of understanding, or attempt to find a balanced view.

    I will study the document at some stage. the only problem i can see I do not live 200+odd years ago and I have insight of the pros and cons of modern real life.
    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Are you actually making commentary that Americans should abandon our Constitution, the one that allowed the U.S. to become the world power that it is, the one that has allowed Americans the freedoms that have given us reason to make the U.S. the great nation it is?

    I suppose those of you who feel you are living in the shadow of the U.S. could feel a want to knock us down a peg or two. Even though we are the defenders of democracy throughout the world, have had a hand in protecting many of the countries that now condemn us, I can see current generations of those whom Americans have fought to protect turning on us.

    What I can't see are Americans turning on the U.S. and the reasons the U.S. is the great nation that it is. I can't see what those who are determined to tear down everything that the U.S. stands for are aiming to acheive.
    It is (and has been) a popular (in vogue... an intellectual way of saying 'hip') viewpoint that the Constitution is 200+ years old... and as such is out of date. In reality this is a subtle excuse to try to derail its authority and wisdom. A truly WISE person would study the document to understand the views and goals the writers had in mind.

    One of those goals was the founders understood the corrupt nature of mankind all to well... they understood that power is always corrupt. So they placed provisions into the founding documents to limit power and to give the common citizen the ability to thwart power... and to even overthrow and replace govt if needed.

    Now place yourself in the position of a seriously powerful govt dude (or dudette). Would you honor a document that gave the commoners the ability to overthrow your govt position and replace you? Of course not. What you would do is spin the wording and interpretation to make it 'appear' the smart or 'intellectual' or 'hip' or 'in vogue' thing is to think of the document as something in a museum that needed revising. Then when enough folks did not understand nor care... you would privately revise it to suite your power structure AT THE EXPENSE OF THE COMMON CITIZEN. To prevent this revision and to protect the common citizen from corrupt govt; is what respect of the founding documents is about.
    All the voters have to do is put aside how much $$$ they get from the govt... and vote for folks who stand on a constitutional platform. This would be a HUGE step towards 'fixing' America. The first thing we need is to teach the masses what the founders tried to create in this country. Visit this sight: http://www.heritage.org/ and read around... you will learn what the founders had in mind.

    Now that GA has posted the founding documents and a place to learn what they meant and mean... GA expects the liberals to be educated on this subject. Continued comments deemed to be from the mind of a non-educated person (one that does not understand the founding documents and/or what they intend and mean)... will be met with a challenge to educate themselves.

    To be a 'true intellectual' one must voluntarily educate oneself. If they do not... well their intellectualism is only a fairy tale in their own mind.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  3. #1615
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    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    14,303
    Gentlemen, It has become crystal clear that our opinions nor our rights matter.

    NYS has passed the most draconian anti-second amendment laws in the land.

    Cuomo, Feinstein and NObama have stated there intentions and what we say or do is a waste of time. These anti-second amendment anti-American's started their gleeful anti-2nd Amendment dance within hours of the Sandy Hook massacre.

    The confiscation process has begun. In four years you will be lucky to have rocks to throw at the criminals. (sling-shots are also banned....not kidding)

    Your life, the lives of your loved ones are now forfeit. Your call for help during a home invasion or robbery will be met with Law Enforcement saying to you "we are very sorry, we got there to late to save your wife and children...Have a nice day"

    I will no longer take part in this debate. Cuomo has used a little used tactic called "Letter of Necessity" to by-pass the normal chain of legislation.

    Expect NObama to do the same, and I expect the Dictator in Chief will copy the NY law. So prepare yourselves.

    Good luck, the anti-American crowd is on a roll and will stop at nothing to take our rights and freedoms away.
    The Last four letters


    American = I Can, Republican = I Can, Democrats = Rats


    any questions

  4. #1616
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Helena, Montana
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    2,155
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    You pick on words to throw off the subject. I’ll take back “100 times”. How about many, many, many more times as much. Is that ok?



    We can use common sense to tell us where they come from. The internet does not replace common sense. Furthermore, stats are more often used to obscure rather than clarify.



    People breaking the law is an everyday occurrence. If you try to stop that before you bolt down your wallet, cash or guns you’ll be losing a lot of personal belongings.
    You remind me of that TV commericial that says something like 80% of all stats are made up on the spot!
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  5. #1617
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,135
    There is something in this discussion I think we may be missing... something which may rekindle the spirit of freedom in America, as well as possibly help the others understand America.

    Lets discuss the word 'Liberty'... What is the concept of a society where all citizens understand their right to liberty; what does liberty mean, what did liberty mean when this great country was formed, and what did the founders believe it meant when they incorporated it into the founding documents?

    Perhaps an understanding of this concept of liberty would help define America to folks (both foreign and domestic) who do not understand America (yet).

    Side note: I have a couple of Hispanic folks who do my installations. They grew up in Mexico... yet they understand freedom and liberty very well!
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  6. #1618
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    You remind me of that TV commericial that says something like 80% of all stats are made up on the spot!
    Statistics are only relevant to a debater... now to a master of debate (put the words together)... the stats take a personal meaning... whoops...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #1619
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Bill View Post
    Under the pseudonym "A British Bostonian," the Baptist preacher John Allen warned the British what would happen if they attempted "to make the Americans subject to their slavery." "This bloody scene can never be executed but at the expense of the destruction of England, and you will find, my Lord, that the AMERICANS WILL NOT SUBMIT TO BE SLAVES, they KNOW THE USE OF THE GUN, and the military art, as well as any of his Majesty's troops at St. James's, and where his Majesty has one soldier, who art in general the refuse of the earth, America can produce fifty, free men, and all volunteers, and raise a more potent army of men in three weeks, than England can in three years." Even Charles Lee, a British military man, observed in a widely circulated pamphlet that "the Yeomanry of America ... are ACCUSTOMED FROM THEIR INFANCY TO FIRE ARMS; they are EXPERT IN THE USE OF THEM:--Whereas the lower and middle people of England are, by the tyranny of certain laws almost as ignorant in the use of a musket, as they are of the ancient Catepulta." The Continental Congress echoed this theme in its declaration of July 1775. "On the sword, therefore, we are compelled to rely for protection. Should victory declare in your favor, yet men TRAINED TO ARMS FROM THEIR INFANCY, and animated by the love of liberty, will afford neither a cheap or easy conquest." Further, "in Britain, where the maxims of freedom were still known, but where luxury and dissipation had diminished the wonted reverence for them, the attack of tyranny has been carried on in a more secret and indirect manner: Corruption has been employed to undermine them. The Americans are not enervated by effeminacy, like the inhabitants of India; nor debauched by luxury, like those of Great-Britain." In writing the Federalist Papers James Madison drew a similar contrast. Noting "the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation," he observed that in Europe "the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms." Years later Timothy Dwight testified to the strength and durability of this belief when he wrote that "to trust arms in the hands of the people at large has, in Europe, been believed ... to be an experiment fraught only with danger. Here by a long trial it has been proved to be perfectly harmless.... If the government be equitable; if it be reasonable in its exaction's; if proper attention be paid to the education of children in knowledge and religion, few men will be disposed to use arms, unless for their amusement, and for the defense of themselves and their country."
    Excellent post!

    One of the reasons the USA was not successful conquering Iraq or Afgan... was that locals who understand how to do 'guerrilla' or 'insurgence' warfare... AND who have that personal inspiration of protecting their homeland and families... are a really TUFF army to conquer.

    Americans have that spirit of protecting their property and family and freedom and liberty... I think most of the rest of developed world just does not understand... and some Americans do not either.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  8. #1620
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
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    11,873
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    This is the point I’ve been driving at. They won’t say they oppose it because it would sound dumb, but they won’t get behind it either.

    The stream of black market guns come from law abiding gun owners and a great deal of them do nothing to stop it. There needs to be a raising of awareness on the subject which is currently not happening.
    Name:  Brilliant.jpg
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    Obviously you & your minions, haven't kept up to speed on most of this thread. I posted pages ago, that I keep my weapons in industrial strength safes. And, any face to face sales, I've used this form. Substantially more than the law requires at this point in time. Everything I own, has gone through an FFL, meaning I'm the registered owner, and have a paper trail that can easily be followed. Coming & going.
    Anything else I may help you with today sir?

    Firearm Bill Of Sale.pdf

  9. #1621
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    11,873
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    Gentlemen, It has become crystal clear that our opinions nor our rights matter.

    NYS has passed the most draconian anti-second amendment laws in the land.

    Cuomo, Feinstein and NObama have stated there intentions and what we say or do is a waste of time. These anti-second amendment anti-American's started their gleeful anti-2nd Amendment dance within hours of the Sandy Hook massacre.

    The confiscation process has begun. In four years you will be lucky to have rocks to throw at the criminals. (sling-shots are also banned....not kidding)

    Your life, the lives of your loved ones are now forfeit. Your call for help during a home invasion or robbery will be met with Law Enforcement saying to you "we are very sorry, we got there to late to save your wife and children...Have a nice day"

    I will no longer take part in this debate. Cuomo has used a little used tactic called "Letter of Necessity" to by-pass the normal chain of legislation.

    Expect NObama to do the same, and I expect the Dictator in Chief will copy the NY law. So prepare yourselves.

    Good luck, the anti-American crowd is on a roll and will stop at nothing to take our rights and freedoms away.


    Yea, I didn't want to be the first one to post that kind of news. Sorry your politicians stabbed their own people in the back.

  10. #1622
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
    Posts
    14,303
    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    There is something in this discussion I think we may be missing... something which may rekindle the spirit of freedom in America, as well as possibly help the others understand America.

    Lets discuss the word 'Liberty'... What is the concept of a society where all citizens understand their right to liberty; what does liberty mean, what did liberty mean when this great country was formed, and what did the founders believe it meant when they incorporated it into the founding documents?

    Perhaps an understanding of this concept of liberty would help define America to folks (both foreign and domestic) who do not understand America (yet).

    Side note: I have a couple of Hispanic folks who do my installations. They grew up in Mexico... yet they understand freedom and liberty very well!
    Liberty and Freedom died last night, it died in Albany NY at 11:20pm
    The Last four letters


    American = I Can, Republican = I Can, Democrats = Rats


    any questions

  11. #1623
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
    Posts
    21,135
    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    Liberty and Freedom died last night, it died in Albany NY at 11:20pm
    They died when the average American relegated them to minor importance. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance... and all we have to do to loose our freedom is... ready... NOTHING.

    IMO we need to carefully and thoroughly define L-I-B-E-R-T-Y... perhaps a few will grasp or understand better.

    I am refraining from starting the process of definition... thought it better to let others.

    Question Jmac: Are there enough gun folks to push back in NY state?

    At this link: http://constitution.org/cs_organ.htm one finds lots of ogranisations dedicated to preserving the USA as the founder birthed this great country.
    Below is a copy of the ones who protect the 2nd amendment. Might want to organize the gun folks and get some legal help. may take a few years to get this to SCOTUS... however shooting down (pun intended, done legally rather than with a firearm) NY state's illegal stance on firearms would be a BIG step towards sending a message to the libs.

    Focus on Second Amendment Rights — Also see Constitutional Defense page.

    1. Militia Units — Directories and Web sites
    2. Gun Owners of America, 8001 Forbes Place #102, Springfield, VA 22151, 703/321-8585 — The no-compromise poltical action group on firearm and militia rights.
    3. National Rifle Association — Defender of the Second Amendment, but a little weak on the rest of the Constitution.
    4. Citizens Committee for the Right to Keep and Bear Arms (CCRKBA) — Another strong force for the RKBA.
    5. The Lawyer's Second Amendment Society — Unites constitutionalist lawyers.
    6. Second Amendment Foundation (SAF) — Tax-deductible companion to the CCRKBA.
    7. Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership — Defend Second Amendment from a Jewish perspective. But non-Jews are welcome to join, too.
    8. Opencarry.org — Promotes open carry legislation.
    9. Concerned Citizens Opposed to Police States (CCOPS) — Oppose abuses of power.
    10. The Law Enforcement Alliance of America — Unites law enforcement professionals, opposes gun control.
    11. Law Enforcement for the Preservation of the Second Amendment — Unites law enforcement professionals against gun control.
    12. Citizens Of America — Oppose compromise on firearm rights.
    13. Women Against Gun Control — Unites women who refuse to be helpless victims.
    14. Madison Society — Focus on Second Amendment compliance through litigation.
    15. Task Force Two — Firearms and militia rights political action group.
    16. Law Enforcement for the Preservation of the Second Amendment — Unites law enforcement professionals.
    17. Knife Rights — Defend right to keep and bear knives and other non-firearm weapons.
    18. National Firearms Association — Canadian RKBA organization.


    I think it is #6 above that goes round the country and legally challenges laws which are in error with the Constitution concerning gun rights. Might want to research this and get them to come visit...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  12. #1624
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    11,873

    Couldn't Hurt To Post This Again

    If Guns Are Outlawed...
    I have been pondering a couple of slogans that have been used over the years.
    We have all heard,"If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will own guns."
    Another slogan that got my attention several decades ago and spray painted on a collage campus wall was even more clever, "When guns are outlawed, only the government will own guns."
    Tonight, however, I want to set the record straight. Those of us living in the USA have the protection of the Bill of Rights and of course, we all know the teeth of our rights is the Second Amendment.
    The Second Amendment is a simple amendment and easily understood by any elementary aged student.
    It is not about sport shooting. It is not about hunting. It is about self defense and our responsibility to defend freedom from those enemies either foreign or domestic who threaten our republic and our way of life.
    Less understood is that our rights, enumerated in the Bill of Rights, do not come from government. They are universal and come from our Creator. The Declaration of Independence states that people are, "...endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights." Government cannot give OR take these rights.
    Let us correct our thinking...
    Our right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by the Law of the Land- the US Constitution, and this right is neither given by, nor can it be taken by government.
    If anyone attempts to violate our right-they are the law breakers-not us and we have done no wrong in maintaining our God given right to keep and bear arms.
    If there is an attempt to outlaw firearms, those attempting to take your right are outlaws.
    Keep this clear in your mind and do not fall into the trap of thinking that if you keep your weapon, you will be an outlaw. Keep your God given rights and never forget the price that was paid to secure our Constitution.

    I hope everyone will re-read The Declaration of Independence:

    IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

    The unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America,

    When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

    We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...

  13. #1625
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    They died when the average American relegated them to minor importance. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance... and all we have to do to loose our freedom is... ready... NOTHING.

    IMO we need to carefully and thoroughly define L-I-B-E-R-T-Y... perhaps a few will grasp or understand better.

    I am refraining from starting the process of definition... thought it better to let others.

    Question Jmac: Are there enough gun folks to push back in NY state?
    apparently not, this is very sad. Our politicians, that we entrusted with our rights has stabbed us in the back.

    Cuomo specifically said in his state of the state address "I don't want to take your guns I own a shot gun, just "some of them"

    Last night, he got almost ALL OF THEM.

    You people need to stand your ground on a national level or you will be next. It is just a matter of time before Cuomo goes for confiscation
    The Last four letters


    American = I Can, Republican = I Can, Democrats = Rats


    any questions

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