Why do you feel the need to own a gun?

[Brian GC]

A REAL M-16 will run you around $50,000.

Duplicate post.

[Brian GC]

A flaw in your assault rifle argument is that you can agree that special features have been designed into rifles for hunting and killing varmints, deer, bear, birds on the ground, birds in the air, etc. You may also agree that certain features have been designed into sniper rifles for killing people at great distances. But you will not agree that special features have ever been designed into rifles for shooting multiple people at close range. The only feature you will admit was designed into such rifles is full-auto, which happens to be a sloppy, inaccurate way of using the rifle. Semi-auto will definitely kill more people per bullet, making it more effective in semi-auto.

The only reason you admit to full-auto is because it is the only feature that is already illegal and you don’t have to give that feature up to any new law. But if you admit there is something other than full-auto with an M-16 that was designed for killing people then your argument begins to unravel. Only then have you pinpointed a feature that should be made illegal. As we all know, you will not use your knowledge of guns to help get guns that were designed to kill people off the streets. Why, because all guns are fun…simple as that.

[the dangling wrangler]

http://www.brpguns.com/categories/Ma...-a-Machinegun/



How to Buy a Machinegun

Yes, You can legally own a machinegun

Unless you live in one of the few states that prohibit machineguns (listed below) or are a convicted felon you can legally own a fully automatic machine gun. In most states, if you qualify to own a handgun, you are qualified to own a machinegun. Machineguns are certainly the most fun and most collectible firearms you can own.

There is no blanket law that prevent private ownership of machineguns. In fact, macihineguns are a very wise and lucrative investment. The reason for this is that in 1986, Congress passed the Firearms Owner’s Protection Act. (Sounds like a good thing, right?) Wrong.

This law banned the manufacture, import, and sale of new machineguns to civilians. Any guns manufactured and registered with BATFE after May of 1986 cannot be sold or possessed by individual citizens. There is, however, over a quarter million existing “pre-May” machineguns that are perfectly legal to purchase. These machine guns are commonly called “transferables.”

So, how can machineguns be a great investment? It’s as simple as supply and demand. The supply of ‘transferable’ machineguns is fixed by the 1986 ban, and the demand by people who want to own and shoot them is steadily increasing. For instance, a transferable MP5 might sell for $15,000 now, they typically sold for $5000 or less ten years ago. Unlike stock, bonds, and mutual funds it’s highly unlikely that it will ever be worthless. In hard times, they may even be worth more. Machine guns are an investment you can cherish, enjoy shooting, and pass on to future generations.

Aren’t these guns dangerous? Well, like any firearm, they can be misused. However, legal machine guns are never misused. As of 1995, there were over 240,000 machine guns registered by the BATFE nationwide. About half are owned by civilians and the other half by government agencies. Since 1934, only two homocides have been linked to legally owned machine gun, and one was committed by a law enforcement officer, as opposed to a civilian (Zawitz, Marianne,Bureau of Justice Statistics, Guns Used in Crime). What that means is that there is essentially no crime committed by individuals owning machine guns. Since these machineguns are already strictly controlled, there has been little or no ‘anti-gun’ pressure on them.

The Process
Ever since the National Firearms Act of 1934, individuals buying machineguns have required the same procedure for each machinegun.
1) Federal transfer form with fingerprints and photographs for the background check.
2) One-time transfer tax of $200.

When your form is approved, a Federal stamp in the amount of $200 is attached to your form certifying approval. This form is your ‘permission slip’ to own that specific machinegun.

Eligibility:

1. You must be a US citizen over 21
2. You must not have been convicted of a crime
3. You must live in a state and jurisdiction that does not prohibit machineguns.

States that prohibit machineguns:
California
Delaware
Hawaii
Illinois
Iowa
Kansas
New York
Rhode Island
Washington
see this site for more info about your state:
http://nraila.org/GunLaws/

Getting a Gun Transferred to You

Per the rules setup under the National Firearms Act, machineguns cannot be transferred interstate between individuals. If you find a transferable machinegun in your state, you can have it transferred directly to you on an ATF Form 4. If you buy a machinegun outside of your state, you must utilize a Federal Firearms Licensee (FFL) who also has a Special Occupational Tax (SOT) registration to first get the machinegun into your state. These dealers are typically referred to as “class 3 dealers.” They normally charge between $100 and $200 to facilitate the transfer process.

Transfers to dealers usually happen very quickly since there is no background check required (approximately 1-2 weeks). There are 3 types of ATF forms that are typically used for machinegun transfers:

Form 3 (tax exempt): FFL/SOT to FFL/SOT
Form 4 (transfer tax required):
to Individual/Corp (within the same state only)
Or
FFL/SOT to Individual (within the same state only) or FFL
Or
Individual to FFL/SOT
Or
Individual to Curio & Relic FFL (for C&R machineguns only)
Form 5 (tax exempt): Individual (deceased) to Heir (within the same state only)

If you buy the machinegun from an ‘individual’ in another state, he would transfer that gun to your dealer in your state on a Form 4. If you buy the machinegun from an FFL/SOT in another state, he would transfer that machinegun to your dealer in your state on a Form 3.

Once the machinegun is in your state, you must complete the Form 4 to get the machinegun transferred from the FFL/SOT to you.

Completing the Form
The Form 4 is a relatively simple two-page form. If you print it from the ATF web site (http://www.atf.treas.gov/forms/5000.htm#firearms) , you must make sure that both pages are on the same sheet of paper. The form must be completed in duplicate. The first section is the information about the “transferee” (you) and the “transferor” (your dealer). The second section is the information about the gun.

There are three sections on the back page:
1) The standard “yes” and “no” questions you have to answer each time you purchase a gun.
2) Section 15 (“Transferee’s Certification”): This is where you state the reason you want the machinegun. Just be honest. Most people buy machineguns for investment, collecting, target shooting, etc.
3) Section 17 (“Law Enforcement Certification”): You should ask your dealer specifically whom you should go to get this section signed. Most local officials don’t want to sign anything they are unfamiliar with, so it’s important to be directed to the correct government agent or office to deal with this form. If you’re lucky you can get your fingerprints and law enforcement certification done in the same day.

If you are filing your Form 4 as a corporation, partnership, LLC, PA or other legal entity besides ‘individual,’ you do not complete Section 17.

The fingerprint cards and photographs are for your FBI background check. This is a standard background check that is done government job applicants, schools teachers, SEC registrants, etc.

What to Send to ATF:
1) Complete Form 4 in duplicate with original ink signatures, not copies.
2) Certification of US Citizenship Form
3) Two FBI-258 Fingerprint Cards
4) Check for $200

Finding the Right Gun
Most transferable machineguns are owned by individuals. Since the ban in 1986 and the high cost of each machinegun, most FFL/SOT holders do not typically have much inventory. Further, all transferable machineguns are at least 22 years old. So buying a transferable machinegun is a lot like buying a used car. Many of the transferable machineguns are offered for sale may not be accurately represented with respect to condition, function, and authenticity. It’s important to deal with reputable collectors and dealers.
Web sites like sturmgewehr.com and subguns.com have been invaluable to the machinegun community. It’s a good idea to watch the Want To Sell (WTS) posts and discussion forums for a while before you decide to make a move on a gun.
Not all machineguns were created equal. Some guns are just better than others and some are more suited for how you like to shoot or collect.

I typically evaluate a gun in three factors:

1. Collectability:
a. How much do other people want it?
i. There are many famous machineguns like the MP-40 or Thompson that are very sought-after by collectors. The key factors for any collector are condition, authenticity, and uniqueness. For example, the M11 and MP-40 basically do the same thing, but an MP-40 can sell for five times more than an M11.

2. Shootability:
a. How fun is the gun to shoot?
i. This is a mostly subjective factor. Some shooters prefer subguns to heavy machineguns or assault rifles. Once you determine your category preference, within each category there are performance and other differences between models. For example, an MP-40 is much more smooth and controllable than an M11.
b. How expensive is it to shoot?
i. A 50 cal. machinegun can get very expensive to run. Also, there are a lot of calibers that are now obsolete and using old/expired ammo may malfunction and damage the machinegun.

3. Serviceability:
a. How expensive and/or rare are spare parts?
b. How often do parts break?
i. Some machinegun designs are fundamentally better designed and built than others.
c. How hard is the gun to service?
i. Some guns were designed to be disposable rather than serviced. The resulting design is much more difficult to service. Replacing a barrel on an MP5 is a good example of a difficult-to-service design.
d. Is there a warrantee?
i. Some of the original manufacturers are still in business and will repair, service, and supply parts for their guns.

[jmac00]

A flaw in your assault rifle argument is that you can agree that special features have been designed into rifles for hunting and killing varmints, deer, bear, birds on the ground, birds in the air, etc. You may also agree that certain features have been designed into sniper rifles for killing people at great distances. But you will not agree that special features have ever been designed into rifles for shooting multiple people at close range. The only feature you will admit was designed into such rifles is full-auto, which happens to be a sloppy, inaccurate way of using the rifle. Semi-auto will definitely kill more people per bullet, making it more effective in semi-auto.

The only reason you admit to full-auto is because it is the only feature that is already illegal and you don’t have to give that feature up to any new law. But if you admit there is something other than full-auto with an M-16 that was designed for killing people then your argument begins to unravel. Only then have you pinpointed a feature that should be made illegal. As we all know, you will not use your knowledge of guns to help get guns that were designed to kill people off the streets. Why, because all guns are fun…simple as that.

there is no flaw, if you design a gun to kill a deer or Bear or Varmint, that same weapon will kill a human. A 22cal will kill a human, easily. So your 10-22 is a assault weapon. try to deny your rifle is not an assault weapon.

and actually, Machine guns have been banned since 1938, along with "Destructive devices" such as Grenades, bombs (of any kind) missiles and poisons. Short barreled shot guns and myriad of other weapons.

Lets just face it.....YOU PERSONALLY don't want people to have a firearm YOU DEEM to be scary. YOU PERSONALLY believe these are weapons of mass destruction, when in fact the ONLY TIME these weapons have been used in mass shooting have been in the year or so.

There are approximately 3.5 MILLION AR-style weapons on the market. exactly THREE have been used in mass shooting by DERANGED INDIVIDUALS.

In NYS, according to the FBI Uniform Crime report, there were exactly FIVE incidences of Long guns being used illegally. Four of them were Hunting accidents, the fifth Im not sure about, non of them involved "assault type firearms"

So exactly why are YOU against Law abiding citizens owning a modern sporting rifle, other than you personal belief that we should not own them.

Even Democratic mayors admit that Law Abiding citizens ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

[geerair]

But in the time it takes you to tee up there would be no golf ball left,the shaft would be shot in two and all four tires of your golf cart would be flat.

Ha!!! Before that dude could clear the barrel from the holster he would writhing on the ground with Titleist dimples imprinted on his nutsack.

[geerair]

They repeat what they hear on TV or other media (because it sounds/feels good... which a lot of thought and effort went into making it sound/feel good)... ...

rather just accept it and follow it (without doing their own research to see if it is true or false).


The folks who verify facts are the ones who KNOW... The ones who just repeat... well they are the ones that get mad fun of... because they open their mouths and stick their feet in (sometimes all the way to their 'junk'... <grin>).


A word of advise: VERIFY what you hear BEFORE you repeat it (and more importantly, before you believe it!!!!!)... and folks will respect you. Pop off at the mouth (also known as diarrhea of the mouth), and folks will continue to pick on you.

Great Caesar's Ghost!!!!!
Undoubtedly a grand prize winner in the "Do As I Say Not As I Do" sweepstakes.

The Czar of the posted without so much as a particle of critical thinking or fact-checking pass-along e-mails excells himself again.

[Super Tech JJ]

JP,

If you are seriously considering an AR-15 I highly recommend the Rock River Arms Tactical Operator II. It is an incredible gun. Also, in a 9mm, you can either get a Glock 19 or the FNX-9 that are both real nice shooters. Both are comparable in type and $. I haven't shot the FNX a whole lot yet but the shooting I have done I was impressed.

Edit- I am considering now a Mossberg 930 Turkey with a pistol grip and an extended tube. I saw this girl shoot one on Youtube and she was pretty impressive with it.

[AStudent]

Great Caesar's Ghost!!!!!
Undoubtedly a grand prize winner in the "Do As I Say Not As I Do" sweepstakes.

The Czar of the posted without so much as a particle of critical thinking or fact-checking pass-along e-mails excells himself again.

Yup....as if the right doesn't do the same thing.

[jmac00]

Im am going to Publicly apologize to Brian GC:

He said awhile back that the reason we (I) carry firearms is because we are paranoid and fearful.

I replied "what do we have to paranoid of, we carry guns"

after thinking about that statement for a few days, I realized he was right. Im AM a big pussy. I AM fearful of being hurt by a bad guy. I'll be 59 YOA this year. My back hurts, my neck hurts my elbows hurt, my knees hurt, hell the only thing on my body that doesn't hurt is my hair.

In my younger days I took a few beating and I handed out a few.

But there is a legal term called Disparity of Force. Which basically says that if someone punches you with a closed fist you may hit them back in kind. If they kick you, you may kick them back. But in all of this is the "reasonable belief that you are in mortal danger" Disparity in size has been part of every disparity of force case since David and Goliath. Wrestling and boxing have weight classes in order to prevent the larger contenders having undue advantage. Men are generally larger and stronger than women, so women "generally" have a little easier time citing disparity of force as a means of defense, but not always.

There are certain factors which include, age, overwhelming size, overwhelming strength, force of numbers and skill using unarmed combat skills.

I am older (my wife thinks Im 6) Im not that big (except around the belly) I just tried to do 50 push ups and I can barely lift my arms to type, after 20, Im only one guy and I have the unarmed combat skills of a HVAC Tech.

So my only option of protection is the great equalizer, my guns. I will run away if I can, but if Im cornered, I will have a better chance of surviving an encounter with a bad guy.

While I never have the intention or the will to kill an attacker, I will have the option to do harm on those that try to do harm to me, my family or friends

So I apologize, I am certainly not Paranoid, but the fear of taking a physical beating to the point of death when Im not able to escape/retreat/runaway is very real.

so on this point, you win. My apologies

[Brian GC]

there is no flaw, if you design a gun to kill a deer or Bear or Varmint, that same weapon will kill a human.

So if you design a brush to clean teeth, but it can also be used to clean grout, it is no longer a toothbrush? It must be called a utility brush?

A 22cal will kill a human, easily.

But not nearly as easily as any other caliber.

And actually, Machine guns have been banned since 1938, along with "Destructive devices” such as Grenades, bombs (of any kind) missiles and poisons. Short barreled shot guns and myriad of other weapons.

But they are still in production and rarely on the black market for our criminals to use in crimes. Why?

Lets just face it.....YOU PERSONALLY don't want people to have a firearm YOU DEEM to be scary.

Nope. I said some guns are designed to be efficient at killing people. You said because that same gun can kill a bird it is no longer designed to kill people. I say nonsense.

YOU PERSONALLY believe these are weapons of mass destruction,

Nope. I said they are weapons designed to kill people.

In NYS, according to the FBI Uniform Crime report, there were exactly FIVE incidences of Long guns being used illegally. Four of them were Hunting accidents, the fifth Im not sure about, non of them involved "assault type firearms"

Maybe some of that could be attributed to the “gun free zone”.

So exactly why are YOU against Law abiding citizens owning a modern sporting rifle,

Because the rifles I refer to are not sporting rifles, unless killing people is now a sport.

Even Democratic mayors admit that Law Abiding citizens ARE NOT THE PROBLEM

Agreed. But Adam Lanza was a law abiding citizen up until the last twenty minutes of his life.

[Super Tech JJ]

Brian,

What caliber do you think MOST AR-15's are? It is a very scary round.

[Brian GC]

Brian,

What caliber do you think MOST AR-15's are? It is a very scary round.

And there you go looking for any mis-speak to pounce on. Maybe I should have said bullet, since you are so easily confused with my point.

I am going to take a wild guess that an AR-15 bullet has a much larger load and a much higher velocity. But I doubt you knew that is what I was referring to.

I also have a CZ HMR 17. Smaller caliber but more deadly.

[Super Tech JJ]

And there you go looking for any mis-speak to pounce on. Maybe I should have said bullet, since you are so easily confused with my point.

I am going to take a wild guess that an AR-15 bullet has a much larger load and a much higher velocity. But I doubt you knew that is what I was referring to.

I also have a CZ HMR 17. Smaller caliber but more deadly.

Can you say "condescending"? Be clear about what you say and people would not try to make you more focused and educated on your terribly generalized statements! An AR-15 in its most common caliber is .223/5.56, or 22 caliber. Not all .223's can shoot 5.56 but all 5.56 chambered guns can shot .223.