Why do you feel the need to own a gun?

[Brian GC]

Yes, something I can speak to with some personal experience. As I have stated I am a police academy grad and former reserve officer, come from a family or past as well as current officers and I use the police firing range so get to talk shop with the cops regularly. My son is a private dectective and and works with the local professional cops all the time. BTW he is currently far from home on an assignment in Tennessee and has been talking with the cops there.

To answer your question, the Police Chiefs Associations are often very anti-gun and anti-ccw. This is especially true in the big cities. Now police chiefs are hired not elected and are in very political positions. They don't get those jobs by being NRA members I can tell you that! Now the street cops in big cities also know who signs their checks and so generally fall in line politically. I was a reserve in a large metro area. Big city police officers also have no actual experience with CCW carriers so they have no personal interactions from which to make a decision on. Most cops in LA or San Francisco (been with them on ride alongs) will be kind of anti CCW for the two reasons states; Political reasons and no experience with CCW citizens.

Now if you go to cities outside of the anti-gun cities of California and the eastern anti-gun cities the situtation changes. The cops in other cities will tell you personally they have no concern with CCW holders. Because of politics they will not usually tell you what they think openly but personally they will mostly not have a problem with CCW. Many of those cops arm their spouse and get them CCW permits.

As soon as you talk to county sheriffs and their deputies outside of the major cities the picture is more positive for CCW yet. My own sheriff for example (as well as the others in my state) is very pro CCW. I just got my own renewed a few weeks ago and he and I had this very conversation. Some of what I am posting here is what we discussed. He by the way has joined the dozens of other sheriffs across the nation who just in the last few weeks have signed a letter stating that they will refuse to enforce any federal laws or regulations they consider unconstitutional. My sheriff said he will NOT disarm any of his CCW holders who are following state and local law. He added, he will move to prevent any agent of the federal government from doing so in his county against one of his CCW holders.

It is a good post. I will consider it.

My only concern is why police in the city have a different opinion of CCW than rural cops. Maybe because they view the people in say LA as I do, being for too unstable to carry.

[Brian GC]

Brian... you are comparing a criminal to a law abiding citizen... there is NO comparison.

A person who would use a gun to commit a crime is in a TOTALLY different place than a person who would use a gun to defend themselves.

Your argument holds less water than a funnel.

You really need to get away from BSNBC... it is warping your ability to understand.

I am not comparing a law abiding citizen to a criminal. I am comparing the way they both use a gun the same way. That is they use it as a visually threatening device and both of them rarely fire a shot. So to only give credit to the CCW holder for not firing a shot you must also give credit to the criminal who uses a gun the same way.

It is the nature of the gun to not have to fire it, not restraint shown by the CCW holder. Most criminals do not want to fire a gun either; they just want your wallet…unless they are shooting other gang members that deserve it.

As for the stat that says criminals won’t enter an occupied house because they fear getting shot. I don’t buy it. They won’t enter an occupied house because they are common burglars, not murderers, rapists or kidnappers. They want a quick in and out without being identified. If you are only asking murderes and rapists why they won't enter an occupied house, that might be true, but most houses are entered by common burglars.

In surveys like that sometimes you can get the answer you want by who you ask and the way you ask the question.

[Brian GC]

I have a question for the moderator if he is following this thread. Is this the fastest growing thread in HVAC-Talk history? Do you have a tool to measure that?

[Slatts]

I have a question for the moderator if he is following this thread. Is this the fastest growing thread in HVAC-Talk history? Do you have a tool to measure that?

go here, http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?16-ARP

At the top of the list you can click on replies or views to sort the list by them. By default it is sorted by last post.

You can also sort by Title or Thread starter.

[corny]

Cops and media did not report the incident until they were pressed to by the FREE media (not the liberal media).

Your post is smoke... the point stands: Many times the media (and govt) cover it when a firearm is used by a citizen to stop a crime.

A coverup.....lol.... thats just as sad as saying the secrets are hidden in the vaticans basement....

The liberal media covered nothing up. The liberal media reported the story the next day with video of the kids and comments by the police chief the very next day....

Your free media blogger even lied about the two incidents occuring on the same night....and he didnt even bother posting his blog till a couple of days after the free media broke the story.

His story does not fall in line with the police, the liberal media.....or the supposed victims of the crime.....

and yet you believe the lying blogger.....

wow.... talk about gullible....

hey, Ive got the plans to a real working free energy machine...can be built from stuff under kitchen sink...... rescued from the vatican basement just a few years ago by a cleaning woman who then gave it to me before she died....of mysterious causes....

100 grand..... free energy.....

email me if you want it..... got to be payment in coins though ....... I sure wouldnt take a check from you.....lol.....or anything on paper...

You just cant blurt out a statement as fact when you have absolutely nothing to back it up..... and using a source that is lying about the facts to make his story a bit juicier... thats just insane...... but whats more insane that your mind is able to totally disregard it.....

It probably sees that part...the obvious lie.....and then starts sending the lalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalalala signal to the reasoning part of your brain.

lol

you are a hoot GA.... thats for sure.

[corny]

Crime goes down here CCW permits go up... and crime goes up where CCW permits go down.

Anyone... show me specific and verifiable numbers that argue with what I just typed above... PLEASE. We really need to end this argument once and for all.
BTW: If anyone wants to post specific and verifiable numbers which agree... please do so also.

Why dont you post them GA.... you probably know right where to find them...seeing as you are a facts and fiqures sort of guy...

But remember .... verifiable...... not lying bloggers whose stories disagree with even the people who were actually there.......lol

[jmac00]

I don't think you can say this is true in every situation.

Also you failed to comment on the main point corny was trying to make.

The number of times per year an American uses a firearm to deter a home invasion alone is 498,000.

Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. Robin M. Ikeda , Violence and Victims, Winter 1997

After the implementation of Canada's 1977 gun controls prohibiting handgun possession for protection, the “breaking and entering” crime rate rose 25%, surpassing the American rate.

Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States, Canada and England and Wales, Pat Mayhew, National Institute of Justice., Wash., D.C.,

Washington D.C. has essentially banned gun ownership since 1976 and has a murder rate of 56.9 per 100,000. Across the river in Arlington, Virginia, gun ownership is less restricted. There, the murder rate is just 1.6 per 100,000, less than three percent of the Washington, D.C. rate

Crime in the United States, FBI,

In 1982, Kennesaw, GA passed a law requiring heads of households to keep at least one firearm in the house. The residential burglary rate dropped 89% the following year.

Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems,

Florida's homicide rate fell from 36% above the national average to 4% below after CCW enactment and remains below the national average (as of the 2005 reporting period).

Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws, Cramer C and Kopel D. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper.

In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.

Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime

States that disallow concealed carry have violent crime rates 11% higher than national averages.

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, Lott, John R., and Mustard, David B. J. of Legal Studies, vol.26, n.1, pp.1-68 (Jan. 1997): This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults – and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.



anything else you children what to know. Instead of just shooting your mouth off, why don't you do your own research. All of these statistics are verifiable. I gave you the information they came from, look them up.

[AStudent]

Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. Robin M. Ikeda , Violence and Victims, Winter 1997

Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States, Canada and England and Wales, Pat Mayhew, National Institute of Justice., Wash., D.C.,

Crime in the United States, FBI,

Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems,

Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws, Cramer C and Kopel D. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper.

Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime

Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, Lott, John R., and Mustard, David B. J. of Legal Studies, vol.26, n.1, pp.1-68 (Jan. 1997): This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults - and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.

anything else you children what to know. Instead of just shooting your mouth off, why don't you do your own research. All of these statistics are verifiable. I gave you the information they came from, look them up.

Your stats are true....but they don't tell the whole truth.

B&E did go up in Canada after gun laws, but it was not a permanent rise.

The rates you speak of from Texas did go down following the allowing of ccw permits....what your source doesn't say is that crime had already started dropping before the bill was ever in court.

I could do this all day but it's difficult since my only source of internet is my phone, and the way you put the info from your links in quotes this app won't let me see those quotes while I'm replying to you....plus breakfast is ready.

My point is that as much as you want to, you can not say that legal gun ownership is the only reason crime changes....which you are implying by not stating any other statistics along side gun ownership and crime.
.

[corny]

Estimating intruder-related firearm retrievals in U.S. households, 1994. Robin M. Ikeda , Violence and Victims, Winter 1997


Residential Burglary: A Comparison of the United States, Canada and England and Wales, Pat Mayhew, National Institute of Justice., Wash., D.C.,


Crime in the United States, FBI,



Crime Control Through the Private Use of Armed Force, Dr. Gary Kleck, Social Problems,


Shall issue: the new wave of concealed handgun permit laws, Cramer C and Kopel D. Golden CO: Independence Institute Issue Paper.


Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime


Crime, Deterrence, and Right-to-Carry Concealed Handguns, Lott, John R., and Mustard, David B. J. of Legal Studies, vol.26, n.1, pp.1-68 (Jan. 1997): This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults – and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.



anything else you children what to know. Instead of just shooting your mouth off, why don't you do your own research. All of these statistics are verifiable. I gave you the information they came from, look them up.

yea, you got anything verifiable......

[corny]

Your stats are true....but they don't tell the whole truth.

B&E did go up in Canada after gun laws, but it was not a permanent rise.

The rates you speak of from Texas did go down following the allowing of ccw permits....what your source doesn't say is that crime had already started dropping before the bill was ever in court.

I could do this all day but it's difficult since my only source of internet is my phone, and the way you put the info from your links in quotes this app won't let me see those quotes while I'm replying to you....plus breakfast is ready.

My point is that as much as you want to, you can not say that legal gun ownership is the only reason crime changes....which you are implying by not stating any other statistics along side gun ownership and crime.
.

Got all kinds of little tricks up their sleeves.....

[jmac00]

Your stats are true....but they don't tell the whole truth.

B&E did go up in Canada after gun laws, but it was not a permanent rise.

The rates you speak of from Texas did go down following the allowing of ccw permits....what your source doesn't say is that crime had already started dropping before the bill was ever in court.

I could do this all day but it's difficult since my only source of internet is my phone, and the way you put the info from your links in quotes this app won't let me see those quotes while I'm replying to you....plus breakfast is ready.

My point is that as much as you want to, you can not say that legal gun ownership is the only reason crime changes....which you are implying by not stating any other statistics along side gun ownership and crime.
.

yea, you got anything verifiable......

obviously penetrating the dark matter between your ears is impossible regardless of facts. So no matter what is posted, the liberal mind is nothing but a black hole which there is no recovery from.

[AStudent]

obviously penetrating the dark matter between your ears is impossible regardless of facts. So no matter what is posted, the liberal mind is nothing but a black hole which there is no recovery from.

I told you that your facts are true...but not completely true. Care to comment on that instead of making fun of people like a child? Oh right...you claim that we are children....nice.

[AStudent]

Got all kinds of little tricks up their sleeves.....

I don't necessarily blame the people as I blame the media....the media knows and has perfected every trick on the book to misinform the public.

I'm guilty of believing some things I see or hear....we all are.