School shootings

[AStudent]

This is crazy....as long as there have been humans we have been killing each other....there's no way around it....unless we become better people.

As far as weapons.....the constitution was written in a time when nearly every person knew something about guns....they were a necessity. Now a days...not so much. Don't give me that talk about but we have to have firearms to defend against a tyrant government..... when the government is willing to allow anyone and everyone to have tanks, battleships and nukes then and only then will the defense against tyrannical government argument make any sense whatsoever.

I'm for people having guns....it's your constitutional right....stick with that argument, because it's the only one that makes any sense at all.

[timebuilder]

This is crazy....as long as there have been humans we have been killing each other....there's no way around it....unless we become better people.

As far as weapons.....the constitution was written in a time when nearly every person knew something about guns....they were a necessity. Now a days...not so much. Don't give me that talk about but we have to have firearms to defend against a tyrant government..... when the government is willing to allow anyone and everyone to have tanks, battleships and nukes then and only then will the defense against tyrannical government argument make any sense whatsoever.

I'm for people having guns....it's your constitutional right....stick with that argument, because it's the only one that makes any sense at all.

Despite what some think about our Constitution, it was written for ALL time, not merely a time when a lot of people routinely used firearms.

When many citizens in an area of our country carry a firearm LEGALLY, there is far less criminal shooting. When these citizens are not permitted to carry, criminals know they can attack with alacrity.

Someone in that school could have saved many of those kids, IF they had a gun with them, and knew how to use it.

[timebuilder]

Hey timebuilder. I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you again.
I'm actually a little peeved that you said we need to go back to the '60's style of treating mental patients.

My aunt had a nervous breakdown when her husband divorced her and took custody of her kids. She ended up in the hospital, drugged and given shock treatment. She wasn't the same for years. She didn't deserve that kind of treatment. All because she had a nervous breakdown.

Btw the shooter had aspergers according to the brother. Should we lock up all kids with autism/aspergers?

Let me expand on my comments, then.

First, all medical disciplines have advanced since then. That's just the increase of knowledge and expertise.

Second, suppose your aunt didn't have a nervous breakdown, and instead, developed a psychosis where she heard voices telling her to kill her family? What result might that have had if she remained free to roam around?

Is there a price to society for taking in sick people and keeping them form harming themselves and others? Sure. That's what the ACLU lawsuit was about.

BUT, that price is preferable to the Columbines, Shopping Mall, and School shootings that we have seen.

I feel for your aunt, and today, she would have been taken in, treated, and very likely, released.


Today's kids with Asperger's are getting treatment, for the most part. From what I know about it, kids with Asperger's don't do things like this, so he may have had multiple personality disorders, along with a psychosis.

[timebuilder]

imo guns are not the problem as they are only a tool that has to be used by a person what i think needs to be done is swift and acute punishment for anybody that uses a weapon of anykind in act of a crime. guns are way to easy to get if any person wants a gun then they will get one legally or illegaly. But would a person kill another person if they knew for a fact that they would be hung on the court house steps the day after being found guilty or would they think twice before commiting a crime?

If the person was you or me, yes.

However, these killers are not you or me. They are psychopaths and sociopaths. They don't have that sense of responsibility, remorse, or caring for others. In fact, they would probably welcome a hanging.

So, punishment is not the answer.

We have to separate out those who would likely cause these harms, and not let them go free until we have a reasonable idea that the normal human protection and social mechanisms are functioning in their minds.

[chaard]

2sac, sorry about your brother.

My point is this is not a black and white issue. My aunt is not mentally handicapped. Never was. But she was treated like a mental patient.

My wife's uncle was mentally handicapped. He lived at home his whole life. He wasn't violent.

Some patients can have violent tendencies, some not. And just when you think one is fine, they do something terrible.

What about anger. A lot of people are normal but have anger issues. Do we test them, sedate them, lock them up?

It's not black and white.

[chaard]

Let me expand on my comments, then.

First, all medical disciplines have advanced since then. That's just the increase of knowledge and expertise.

Second, suppose your aunt didn't have a nervous breakdown, and instead, developed a psychosis where she heard voices telling her to kill her family? What result might that have had if she remained free to roam around?

Is there a price to society for taking in sick people and keeping them form harming themselves and others? Sure. That's what the ACLU lawsuit was about.

BUT, that price is preferable to the Columbines, Shopping Mall, and School shootings that we have seen.

I feel for your aunt, and today, she would have been taken in, treated, and very likely, released.


Today's kids with Asperger's are getting treatment, for the most part. From what I know about it, kids with Asperger's don't do things like this, so he may have had multiple personality disorders, along with a psychosis.

Let's not assume what my aunt may or may not have done.

My grandmother told me of a story when her first daughter, my other aunt that is mentally handicapped and has been in a home most of her entire life.
When my aunt was a baby, my grandmother heard voices that told her to jump out the window with her child. She resisted. And today we are all here because she didn't listen. My grandmother is not and has never been ill.

[timebuilder]

My point is that we need to err, and act, on the side of caution, and we can approach, yet not succeed, in eliminating these killings.

[chaard]

Near here in Springfield, One mother called the police when she learned her son went off his meds.

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=17742369

[2sac]

and it probably killed her inside to do such a thing. But, she did it. Kudos to her.

chaard, Timebuilder, I think the problem is we cannot set standards for people with mental issues because everyone is unique. There are signs that people show which should be taken seriously. Whether in school, at the workplace or the grocery store. Remember after 9/11 the public was asked to keep their eyes open and report any suspicious activities? The same should go for this scenario. That mother in Springfield knew nothing good could happen with her son off his meds. Lastly, take your kids fishing and hunting and to the race track and to the ball games and help them find a hobby and teach them your trade and let them work on their car and play cards with them and let them try organized sports and teach them to swim and a million other things they could be doing besides shooting people while playing video games.

[timebuilder]

History shows that when we took more proactive steps, the incidence of these killings were far fewer.

That is the proof.

[2sac]

History shows that when we took more proactive steps, the incidence of these killings were far fewer.

That is the proof.

Agreed, but we no longer live in that society and no matter how many facts and logic you throw at the "Do Gooders" we always come up short. Common sense isn't common.

[jpsmith1cm]

If your father wants new laws that mimic his beliefs, then I have to talk with him. He is dead wrong.

Government is incapable of implementing God's will, whether it be a Christian, Muslim, or some other perspective, because we are sinful creatures. If it was God's will to bring His order to the Roman occupation of Jerusalem, Christ would have made every Roman soldier drop dead, and no one would have been left to crucify him.

Instead, we are to turn away from temptation, not legislate it away, because that is impossible for us.

You're the first person of a religious persuasion that I've seen or heard express that belief.

[jpsmith1cm]

When I was a kid, they were locked up until they were well.

Yes.

And, not too many years ago, we beat left handed children and forced them to use their right hands because the left was considered to be evil.

Years ago, children with dyslexia were just considered "stupid"

We're, by and large, a smarter and better society than we were years ago.

Some adjustments need to be made, sure, but locking everyone with a mental issue up is not the answer.

[jpsmith1cm]

Lastly, take your kids fishing and hunting and to the race track and to the ball games and help them find a hobby and teach them your trade and let them work on their car and play cards with them and let them try organized sports and teach them to swim and a million other things they could be doing besides shooting people while playing video games.

I think we've got us a winner, here.


I hunt. I have killed. I have taken life to sustain my own life.

Partly because of that, I place a high value on life. I do not take it lightly.

I've also seen the loss of life close to me. I've felt and known that pain and couldn't willingly inflict it on another.

We're seeing a lot of thing that, I think, can be tracked back to the break down of the nuclear family rather than anything regarding mental health issues.

Taxes are up, prices of goods are up, real incomes are down, families are broken if not shattered by divorce and who really suffers? The children.

These children, now, are grown and, in many cases have children of their own. They haven't a clue how to deal with the realities of life because mom and dad were too busy trying to support a home that they weren't around to take that all-important TIME to take a kid to a ballgame or to take them fishing.

[timebuilder]

Yes.

And, not too many years ago, we beat left handed children and forced them to use their right hands because the left was considered to be evil.

Years ago, children with dyslexia were just considered "stupid"

We're, by and large, a smarter and better society than we were years ago.

Some adjustments need to be made, sure, but locking everyone with a mental issue up is not the answer.

Let's be clear, and not hysterical.

We did not lock up everyone with "a mental issue."

We locked up the people that clearly had lost their grasp on reality and social empathy toward others.

I saw that, and I was a dyslexic kid who scored off the charts on tests. I refused to pay attention in the slow-moving classes paced for the other kids. Unfortunately, there were no programs for gifted kids who didn't want to sit still in class. My teacher used to say I had "ants in my pants." Actually, I was bored stiff.

And no one even offered to lock me up.

ALL of the shooters of Columbine, Congresswoman Giffords, the Aurora movie theater, the recent Oregon shopping mall, and Fridays school attack were clearly "not right," and even a lay person who interacted with them would know that, beyond any reasonable doubt. This means it would be clear to a mental health professional in front of any judge that involuntary commitment was needed.

The problem is that we have been loathe to do this as a society.

That's why these little children are dead. Period.

[timebuilder]

You're the first person of a religious persuasion that I've seen or heard express that belief.

Then you need to talk with more people who know what they are talking about.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Despite what some think about our Constitution, it was written for ALL time, not merely a time when a lot of people routinely used firearms.

When many citizens in an area of our country carry a firearm LEGALLY, there is far less criminal shooting. When these citizens are not permitted to carry, criminals know they can attack with alacrity.

Someone in that school could have saved many of those kids, IF they had a gun with them, and knew how to use it.

Seems there is a school district in Texas that agrees:

http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/12...OxU7M.facebook

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just a thought here:

Is the rights of one person who shows serious signs of being unstable enough to be a threat to society more important... or is the safety of the whole of society more important? Yeah, that is a TUFF question.... one I am glad I do not have the job of deciding for lots of folks... However:

IMO I think we are going to have to address this question... or endure more horrific events. Not an easy choice at all... Wonder how many polecats are willing to face into that one... maybe less than the fingers on my hands...

[number88]

Many of you may not like this idea but if everyone carried a gun this guy would have been stopped. People need to train themselves on how to use and carry a firearm. People would think twice before committing crimes if they knew they were taking a big chance pulling out a gun.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

So every teacher needs a gun now? What about the teachers assistants; we have to arm them and train them annually with Baretta's? How about substitute teachers? The secretary in the front office needs a 45 and the principals need Mac 10s? Good enough for me. How about the janitor? I forgot about the cafeteria ladies as well....... My concern is that teachers are human and if one of them has a bad day or week or becomes mentally unstable the kids are in the same danger they were in before. All adults have breakdowns and issues. We can place trust in these people to instruct children, but giving them weapons is not and should never be in their job description. They have enough stress worrying about test scores, preparing lesson plans, dealing with individual learning curves and behavior issues. Pay someone a good wage to protect our children and use technology and common sense to secure our schools.

Bottom line everyone doesn't need a gun at our schools. Competent armed security personnel and police can handle attackers and would reduce these tragedies. The guy in Connecticut knew no one would be shooting back at him, those kids didn't have a chance. Even if the teacher had a weapon if the guy put a bullet in her forehead before she could get a shot off having a weapon with a full clip would be useless. Several police officers are killed by gunfire every year and they are armed and have vests. More guns in society is not the answer, more guns would take verbal and physical confrontations and turn them into shootouts. BTW, I respect everyones right to have guns but school security should be at the top of our discussion, not the second amendment and whether obama is going to knock on our doors and take our AKs and AR-15s away. Its selfish and disrespectful to the victims of this tragedy to focus on politics after this situation.

[jpsmith1cm]

So every teacher needs a gun now? What about the teachers assistants; we have to arm them and train them annually with Baretta's? How about substitute teachers? The secretary in the front office needs a 45 and the principals need Mac 10s? Good enough for me. How about the janitor? I forgot about the cafeteria ladies as well....... My concern is that teachers are human and if one of them has a bad day or week or becomes mentally unstable the kids are in the same danger they were in before. All adults have breakdowns and issues. We can place trust in these people to instruct children, but giving them weapons is not and should never be in their job description. They have enough stress worrying about test scores, preparing lesson plans, dealing with individual learning curves and behavior issues. Pay someone a good wage to protect our children and use technology and common sense to secure our schools.

Bottom line everyone doesn't need a gun at our schools. Competent armed security personnel and police can handle attackers and would reduce these tragedies. The guy in Connecticut knew no one would be shooting back at him, those kids didn't have a chance. Even if the teacher had a weapon if the guy put a bullet in her forehead before she could get a shot off having a weapon with a full clip would be useless. Several police officers are killed by gunfire every year and they are armed and have vests. More guns in society is not the answer, more guns would take verbal and physical confrontations and turn them into shootouts. BTW, I respect everyones right to have guns but school security should be at the top of our discussion, not the second amendment and whether obama is going to knock on our doors and take our AKs and AR-15s away. Its selfish and disrespectful to the victims of this tragedy to focus on politics after this situation.

http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...e-2511412.html

read it and think about it a little.

Nobody is saying that EVERY teacher should be armed, but rather that teachers should have the CHOICE to arm themselves.

As the law stands today, they do not have that CHOICE.