New Trane System

[dan sw fl]

Western WA spans several 1,000's square miles so NO one knows your location.
It's all about LOCATION- LOCATION - LOCATION.

Generally, one would use a heat pump in WA.
I would say heat strips are sufficient given that the heat pump is sized for Head Load in the NW.
+ electric rates are generally Extremely Low in WA.

Send building plans and location and I'll tell you what size heat pump and strips you need.

U-value of windows MUST be determined.

Perform a Blower Door test to determine infiltration
which may be >> 20% of the Heat Load if care was not taken to make it tight.

[Quantumstate]

did you try looking in the Contractor locator section to find a QUALIFIED person in your area?

If you have any illusions of me hiring you, think again.


Hello Dan, apparently we can't have a civilized discussion here, so I tried to PM you but can't find any mechanism. I run Linux so don't have Skype set up. I'd put my company website here, but these people are just so nasty here and after 30 minutes I can't edit posts. The mods knock out earnest contributions and questions in others' threads in a second, but where are they when this sh*t goes on? Do they like this in their forum?

Agree, and I expect to run the HP at least 80% of the time. I question whether it's worth the XC95m, but there don't seem to be any decent alternatives. I would like to have the flexibility of using gas, even though our electricity here is socialized and so is about the cheapest in the nation, not to mention being mostly hydro and green as can be.

Then there are my other questions.

[dan sw fl]

If you have any illusions of me hiring you, think again.


Hello Dan, apparently we can't have a civilized discussion here, so I tried to PM you but can't find any mechanism. I run Linux so don't have Skype set up. I'd put my company website here, but these people are just so nasty here and after 30 minutes I can't edit posts. The mods knock out earnest contributions and questions in others' threads in a second, but where are they when this sh*t goes on? Do they like this in their forum?

Agree, and I expect to run the HP at least 80% of the time. I question whether it's worth the XC95m, but there don't seem to be any decent alternatives. I would like to have the flexibility of using gas, even though our electricity here is socialized and so is about the cheapest in the nation, not to mention being mostly hydro and green as can be.

Then there are my other questions.

See my profile for my e-mail.

[dan sw fl]

2,000 square foot residence may require 37,000 BTUH at 15'F

Carrier Heat Pump Performance for Model 25HCC5
3.5 ton is on page 20.

_ _ General energy costs

Station: Fort Lewis / Gray U. S. Army Airfield, WA, US (122.58W,47.08N)
Station ID: KGRF
___________________ $ 0.06 /kw ___ 12,600 Kw per year for heating
Month starting ___ HDD ___ $756 . / year
12/1/2011 ___ 867 ___ 15.2% __ $114.77
1/1/2012 ___ 842 ___ 14.7%__ $111.46
2/1/2012 ___ 699 ___ 12.2%__ $92.53
3/1/2012 ___ 707 ___ 12.4%__ $93.59
4/1/2012 ___ 475 ___ 8.3% ___ $62.88
5/1/2012 ___ 368 ___ 6.4% ___ $48.71
6/1/2012 ___ 252 ___ 4.4% ___ $33.36
7/1/2012 ___ 134 ___ 2.3% ___ $17.74
8/1/2012 ___ 109 ___ 1.9% ___ $14.43
9/1/2012 ___ 223 ___ 3.9% ___ $29.52
10/1/2012 ___ 428 ___ 7.5% ___ $56.66
11/1/2012 ___ 607 ___ 10.6%__ $80.35

____________ 5,711 Annual Heating Degree Days (HDD)

[Dennis.Moore]

Comfort R is a Trane feature on var speed blowers that supposedly gives more humidity control during the cooling mode. If set up correctly,during AC cooling, air moves over the coil more slowly at start-up resulting in increased moisture removal. I personally think this is more hype and a sales tool than anything else and of course other brands such as the Carrier Infinity/Bryant Evolution systems have something similar, even better.
As stated, it has to be set up correctly and I have found that some Trane installers are deficient in this area. The settings are made to "on/off dip switches" that are inside the control cabinet for either a var speed furnace or air handler. Really I think the settings are self explanatory if one is literate, has basic HVAC knowledge, and knows his equipment. Instructions are inside the control panel door. I suggest you go over this at the airhandler with the installer before he leaves the job to verify the settings are correct. Since this is a new install, it is not up to you to make the settings.

ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hvac/msg0422373318975.html

Field charger
Charges contaminants so they are attracted
to oppositely charged collection cells.

http://www.fairweatherac.com/documen...fectscolor.pdf


Couldn't find specific programming documentation on the STAT
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMaKX...yer_detailpage


If you oversize a coil, you have to provide the correct size metering device.
Normally the chosen seer already gives you increased coil surface area to achieve it

[beenthere]

Have you contacted WHAC Corporation.

[tedkidd]

What I'm saying is it's going to either be Carrier or Trane (or Am Std). Maybe you don't understand that,

I understand many of the reasons you would feel that way. I'd feel the same way.

On the evap coil, I read here that it is better to slightly oversize it. But the next size up in this coil is 60k btu. That seems like too much of a jump from 36k. So I went to the next-best coil in 3.5 ton, the 4TXCB042BC3, and 4 ton, the 4TXCB048BC3, but neither shows up in AHRI as an approved system. So it doesn't seem possible to slightly over-size the coil with the newest equipment?

I think the matching coil is a 4 ton coil. (3-4 ton, but not really made a deep dive into AS yet.)

Regarding the furnace question, maybe you might consider straight heat pump. If the house is really decent, the gas furnace is like buying a Prius for "all the mileage savings", then driving it 1000 miles a year. (does this analogy clearly express an absurdity, or is it to abstract?)

AHU will save on the equipment side, piping, venting, and depending on other appliance decisions, potentially avoid a monthly meter charge.

[pacnw]

If you have any illusions of me hiring you, think again.


Hello Dan, apparently we can't have a civilized discussion here, so I tried to PM you but can't find any mechanism. I run Linux so don't have Skype set up. I'd put my company website here, but these people are just so nasty here and after 30 minutes I can't edit posts. The mods knock out earnest contributions and questions in others' threads in a second, but where are they when this sh*t goes on? Do they like this in their forum?

Agree, and I expect to run the HP at least 80% of the time. I question whether it's worth the XC95m, but there don't seem to be any decent alternatives. I would like to have the flexibility of using gas, even though our electricity here is socialized and so is about the cheapest in the nation, not to mention being mostly hydro and green as can be.

Then there are my other questions.

not sure if you think this is me, but it is NOT and you are a customer I would NEVER work with anyways.

so, take this offer from whomever it is as genuine.

[tedkidd]

PAC, you are one of the guys I admire. Where did THAT come from?

This thread started badly. Let's turn it around or close it.

[Mr Bill]

PAC, you are one of the guys I admire. Where did THAT come from?

This thread started badly. Let's turn it around or close it.

So basically your taking brand over brains?

So I am doing the best I can to get the info I need to make sure this is done properly. What is a forum for? I think it is to ask questions, and that is exactly what I've done, but have only gotten crap from the likes of worthless Mr Bill.

He got his panties in a knot because I asked "So basically your taking brand over brains?" and called me "worthless" this is were it come from.

[Quantumstate]

ths.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hvac/msg0422373318975.html

http://www.fairweatherac.com/documen...fectscolor.pdf

Couldn't find specific programming documentation on the STAT

If you oversize a coil, you have to provide the correct size metering device.
Normally the chosen seer already gives you increased coil surface area to achieve it

Thanks Dennis, good to know ComfortR is so simple, and about the filter. Ya I'd seen the t-stat video. But on the metering device, I thought a system like this would have a thermal metering device on both ends, so that shouldn't be an issue?

I understand many of the reasons you would feel that way. I'd feel the same way.

Yup. I think many educated people would. I think that Carrier is a little too proud of their equipment though.

I think the matching coil is a 4 ton coil. (3-4 ton, but not really made a deep dive into AS yet.)

Well that would be nice. I can't find any evidence of that though.

Regarding the furnace question, maybe you might consider straight heat pump. If the house is really decent, the gas furnace is like buying a Prius for "all the mileage savings", then driving it 1000 miles a year. (does this analogy clearly express an absurdity, or is it to abstract?)

Good analogy. All of this 'heat pump taking over' stuff is just theory to me at this point. I don't have any experience with it. I read that 'heat pump heat is colder', but maybe that's just an emotional conclusion from the idea that it comes from an "air conditioner".

I am concerned though about the heat pump running much of the time in Winter, as I remember $500 A/C bills in Texas. How is that saving over gas? How do you equate the cost of electricity with the cost of gas in these dual-fuel systems? This is why the Carrier system is so appealing, as you can program the costs/therm in and it will decide the balance point based on costs.

I notice that most HVAC installs like this are done with XC80's, but there isn't really any place to vent the stack in this case. The old furnace was a rusted-out busted old Payne 90. One thing I found is that the PVC vent pipes sloped down toward the furnace over the ~60' run, and so of course all the condensate would drain back to the secondary. So I had that fixed. Also on the outside, the intake pointed up, I guess to catch as much rain as possible, so pointed that down.

AHU will save on the equipment side, piping, venting, and depending on other appliance decisions, potentially avoid a monthly meter charge.

Ahu or a'u - the central stone part of a Marae in much of Polynesia?
Ahu, the stone platforms on Easter Island (on some of which Moai used to stand)? or
Ahu, altars in Heiau (Hawaiian Temples)?

[jtrammel]

AHU= air handler unit

[jtrammel]

Trane/am std is no better than any other brand, the only reason people think it is is because of the huge marketing/advertising dollars trane spends that is added to the cost of each piece of equipment.

[beenthere]

The old furnace was a rusted-out busted old Payne 90. One thing I found is that the PVC vent pipes sloped down toward the furnace over the ~60' run,

That is how they are suppose to be ran.

[tedkidd]

Trane/am std is no better than any other brand, the only reason people think it is is because of the huge marketing/advertising dollars trane spends that is added to the cost of each piece of equipment.

I suspect this to be true. The bar gets higher all the time, those that don't rise to it will suffer competitive disadvantage.

Some of the surprisingly low bills I've see had old rheem mods as part of the picture.

Low register temperature is the only way to avoid overheating. Overheating leads to thermostat satisfying. That leads to furnaces shutting off.

Put just the amount of heat to the enclosure necessary to match loss. That's how to achieve amazing comfort and efficiency.

(.. and you too Bill! I admit to being a hypocrite here, but do as I say not as I do. You guys are supposed to set a good example for ME)

[BaldLoonie]

Trane uses TXVs in & out. Some brands use pistons as they are simple and don't break down like crazy But not as good and certainly not when trying to get super SEER.

Like the boys say, flue runs downhill to the furnace. If a long horizontal run, ought to have a T and drain just before the furnace since Trane doesn't do that for you in the furnace like some others. Through a roof, I run the flue straight up. Some 180° it but I don't want acidic flue gases or condensate on the roof. Side wall vent, we point straight out and elbow the intake down. I suppose in a climate where it doesn't drop below freezing you could have the entire run downhill to outside. We sure can't do that here, be a humongous icicle off the vent in our weather! Also could have a dead grass spot below it due to the acid content of the condensate.

[Quantumstate]

jtrammel I know some of you continuously evangelize for Whatever brand, but I am not selecting merely on 'reputation' (real or imaginary). Fifteen years ago I bought ten old Carrier condensers for $60 each for an apt complex I owned, and they all ran great. Ten years before that I got a Carrier condenser with a rent-house I bought; it was around 30 years old at the time and ran great until I sold the house. Just certain brands last longer and run better over the long-haul, and you notice that if you're paying attention.

jtrammel; you are going to have to understand that you guys do not have the best credibility or greatest reputation. Fifteen years ago my mother's furnace quit. Instead of calling me she panicked and called out some HVAC company, who promptly put in the cheapest crap furnace in existence, and charged her $$$$!! That is all they did -- replace the frickin' furnace. I was so angry at that company, and I have never forgotten/forgiven what they did. Don't tell me some of you haven't taken advantage of an oldster. So when you say Goodman or Lennox or Bryant is "just as good" and that it all comes down to the install, forgive me if I vomit.


BL due to the destruction water did to the old Payne I just don't trust sloping it back. Even with these new stainless secondaries, I'd just as soon keep waste out of the furnace. Any kind of tee you put by the furnace would let products of combustion into the room, since it's under positive pressure.

I hadn't thought of it making an icicle outside. Seems like the small amount of residual heat in the gases would melt it, at least inside the line. Ya I have the intake ell down 1' and exhaust straight out. Huge bends inside (from PVC electrical conduit).

[tedkidd]

Looney, I love that post! So many tasty little nuggets.

Quantum, I think thats not true about reliability, but I'd definitely defer to seasoned service techs for their opinion, which in my experience has been - some specific models have problems but no brand is exempt.

The Russian roulette wild west caviat emptor part, that's pretty accurate.

If only people were a little more proactive. Cmon, at least have a replacement plan for a 20 year old furnace, even if you insist on walking it to the grave.

[BaldLoonie]

Actually you trap the tee with a loop in your vinyl drain. Some furnace makers don't have the condensate run into the inducer like Trane does. Rheem & Lennox for example, drain the water in the furnace before it gets to the inducer.

Mild climate you may not form ice. Around here, even without draining outside, I've seen flues with 4-5' icicles hanging down from the side of the house. Days of bitter weather and lots of running.

[beshvac]

[QUOTE=Quantumstate;14746271]. Ten years before that I got a Carrier condenser with a rent-house I bought; it was around 30 years old at the time and ran great until I sold the house. Just certain brands last longer and run better over the long-haul, and you notice that if you're paying attention.

If you have been paying attention...NOBODY makes stuff like they did 30 years ago. IMO I don't shop at walmart to buy something for 1/2 the price and it lasts 1/2 as long.
jtrammel; you are going to have to understand that you guys do not have the best credibility or greatest reputation. Fifteen years ago my mother's furnace quit. Instead of calling me she panicked and called out some HVAC company, who promptly put in the cheapest crap furnace in existence, and charged her $$$$!! That is all they did -- replace the frickin' furnace. I was so angry at that company, and I have never forgotten/forgiven what they did. Don't tell me some of you haven't taken advantage of an oldster. So when you say Goodman or Lennox or Bryant is "just as good" and that it all comes down to the install, forgive me if I vomit.

Sorry your mother got taken by a box salesman, but dont group all of us into we were the ones that bent her over! Quite frankly thats insulting. YOU WERE GIVEN THE BEST ADVICE OF ALL-GET a FREAKIN SMART CONTRACTOR! And another thing this site is mainly made up of HVAC contractors that love what they do and are on here giving advice to prevent what happened to your mother..

BL due to the destruction water did to the old Payne I just don't trust sloping it back. Even with these new stainless secondaries, I'd just as soon keep waste out of the furnace. Any kind of tee you put by the furnace would let products of combustion into the room, since it's under positive pressure.

IT DOESN'T let the products of combustion into the ROOM. What BL described is also the method to use when you put a 90 plus into a crawlspace and don't have the room to slope the PVC properly.
QUOTE]