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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mid-Mo
    Posts
    3,594
    Daikin does make a water source unit I believe. Might be worth checkin into?

  2. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Coastal Maine
    Posts
    811
    We have used the Daikin VRV's on college campuses, bank buildings and some govt buildings. The key from my perspective is to have an engineer design the system, AND make sure that the engineer is familiar with VRV/Heat recovery systems.

    They do work very well. Even in our climate up here. There is very little difference between Daikin VRV, Mitsubishi's City Multi, and Fujitsu's Flex system. With the exception that I don't believe the Fujitsu system is available yet in large tonnage. As for payback, the payback is better on the heat recovery systems, because the installed costs are much less than drilling.

  3. #16
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,415
    air1

    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

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  4. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Location
    Cincinnati
    Posts
    28
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

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    Last edited by beenthere; 01-06-2013 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Non Pro * Member

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lancaster PA
    Posts
    67,761
    Gary R, this is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary or ask questions of the OP here. Please apply to the AOPC today, thank you.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Your post has been deleted.
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  6. #19
    Join Date
    Jul 2000
    Location
    Northern Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,986
    Running up against design constraints that tend to make you try and pound a square peg into a round hole can sometimes come back to bite you. Predefining a finite box that you are going to allow yourself to work within while trying to design a solution to a problem will only accomplish one thing, predefine the problems you will have once it's all done. Why? Because you sometimes push the limits on every specification and parameter from the start which leaves very little room when the real world steps up to test your system. Remember, most specifications are derived from R&D facilities using testing procedures derived from "average" real world conditions. Even if and when field trials are done to prove the concept and R&D findings, unlimited resources are used to tweak and constantly monitor every thing happening.

    *Falling off my soapbox with a headache*

    Some things to consider adding to your box of possibilities:
    * If you're limited by space for wells, how about considering burying a large tank for a buffer to supplement what you can drill? The heating and cooling loads change by the hour. Running the hourly bins may show all you need is a few hours of "help".
    * Adding solar collectors to supplement the heating and DHW use. Universities have grants available to them for going green in more than one direction.
    * Dealing with peak loads with smaller foot print and less costly means. IE: Winter peak loads with a few high efficient boilers or possibly the utility would offer substantial cost savings for off peak electrical use to fire a large electric boiler. Maybe consider a co-generation unit. Handle summer peak loads with a cooling tower.
    * All those college kids taking showers. Look into a means in the winter of recovering the heat from all that heated water going down the drain.
    * Invest a small portion of the budget into remodeling the outer walls of the rooms to insulate them better. Probably another area where grants or help from the utility might be available.

    Just sayin.
    Use the biggest hammer you like, pounding a square peg into a round hole does not equal a proper fit.

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Fayette, MO.
    Posts
    11
    Thanks for all the replys. We will be digesting all the information that we have gathered. We had a very good conference call with Marcia Karr at Washington State University. She has done extensive study on VRF systems.
    Herman

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Mount Airy, MD
    Posts
    7,281
    Quote Originally Posted by firecontrol View Post
    Running up against design constraints that tend to make you try and pound a square peg into a round hole can sometimes come back to bite you. Predefining a finite box that you are going to allow yourself to work within while trying to design a solution to a problem will only accomplish one thing, predefine the problems you will have once it's all done. Why? Because you sometimes push the limits on every specification and parameter from the start which leaves very little room when the real world steps up to test your system. Remember, most specifications are derived from R&D facilities using testing procedures derived from "average" real world conditions. Even if and when field trials are done to prove the concept and R&D findings, unlimited resources are used to tweak and constantly monitor every thing happening.

    *Falling off my soapbox with a headache*

    Some things to consider adding to your box of possibilities:
    * If you're limited by space for wells, how about considering burying a large tank for a buffer to supplement what you can drill? The heating and cooling loads change by the hour. Running the hourly bins may show all you need is a few hours of "help".
    * Adding solar collectors to supplement the heating and DHW use. Universities have grants available to them for going green in more than one direction.
    * Dealing with peak loads with smaller foot print and less costly means. IE: Winter peak loads with a few high efficient boilers or possibly the utility would offer substantial cost savings for off peak electrical use to fire a large electric boiler. Maybe consider a co-generation unit. Handle summer peak loads with a cooling tower.
    * All those college kids taking showers. Look into a means in the winter of recovering the heat from all that heated water going down the drain.
    * Invest a small portion of the budget into remodeling the outer walls of the rooms to insulate them better. Probably another area where grants or help from the utility might be available.

    Just sayin.
    Well said

    There also many ways to "precondition" your geothermal loop with a hybrid system and the controls to back it up for maximum efficiency. This would include pump control over a vast loop.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Lenexa, KS
    Posts
    433
    50PanHead,

    We are a consulting engineering firm that has done work on your campus before and we have a number of Daikin systems underneath our belt. We are working with TMI, as previously mentioned, which now has a Kansas City office. Have you contacted any firms about running an analysis for you to see if VRV/F is a viable option for you? Feel free to Private Message me to see about getting together and running some numbers.

    FWIW, the buildings we have applied Daikin on look very similar to yours. (K-12 schools, all exterior zones, minimal interior-only spaces) I can only assume that if it worked for the schools that it will probably work for your building as well, but every application is unique and will require making sure that the equipment will be able to handle the conditions.
    "We are what we repeatedly do.
    Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."
    -Aristotle

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    6
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Additional infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
    Last edited by jpsmith1cm; 03-03-2013 at 08:38 AM. Reason: non AOP member

  11. #24
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Western PA
    Posts
    25,415
    LCJ


    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

    You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

    Additional infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    6
    This is the Ask Our Pro's forum, and only Pro members that have been vetted by the AOPC may post advise, commentary, or ask questions of the OP here.

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    Further infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.
    Last edited by beenthere; 03-03-2013 at 09:26 AM. Reason: Non Pro * Member

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Fayette, MO.
    Posts
    11
    Managers
    How about moving this thread back to the General Forum.
    I would like to here from some other Maintenance Men or Women out there. I'l like to know how they feel about the Daikin VRV's systems. Design Enineers are not maintenance people.

    Thanks
    50

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