Suppliers claim "our brand is the same as (insert major manufacturer)"

[ga-hvac-tech]

Thread pretty well tells the story: I have a sheet (a few years old) shows about 54 or 55 brand names, from 8 manufacture groups.

Generally, almost everyone uses Copeland Scroll compressors, however I see some private label compressors made by LG (to older copeland specs)... so far they are holding up well. Some say the Trane Scrolls are Copelands painted red.

The draft inducer motors are mostly from 2 or 3 companies, the blower and fan motors are all from Mexico or China. The capacitors used to be all Mexico, now some are China and a few high priced brands (none on new equipment I know of) are made in the USA (Amrad). Circuit boards are all from China, as are most contactors, sequencers, relays, pressure switches, etc. A few parts come from Brazil, where most automobile electric and electronic parts come from (nephew in law sells for that co).

Coil making is a manufacturing process... each co does it their way. Key is thickness of CO tubing... and QC during manufacturing. Some co's have gone from 3/8 co tubing to 5/16 or even 1/4 tubing... good and bad issues here. A few (Goodman/Amana and Trane/Am-Std) have gone to all aluminum coils... jury is still out on this. Nordyne group is trying 'micro-channel' coils... similar to automobile coils... LOTS of issues with this design... and lots of failures so far... jury is still VERY out on this.

Trane tried plastic blower cages in their furnaces, and some co's have tried plastic and paper thin metal blower wheels... lots of disintegration (flying apart) issues in the past.

Heat Exchangers (HXE) are either tubular or clamshell... good and bad points for both, depending on manufacturing processes. Metal HXE is made of matters... better units made with better metals... most co's higher end products have better metal HXE's.

Now what is left: How much better is one unit's sheetmetal than the other's? Well the joke in the industry is Goodman even uses larger SM screws... yet they still strip out. Goodman actually puts a part in their ne AH cabinet to strengthen the screw attachment point.

Having said this; I have visited 4 different manufacturing plants in the USA; and I can say AlliedAir has better QC than the others.

Personally, I have sold Trane, been a dealer for Goodman and Ruud, and currently am selling AirEase (part of AlliedAir; includes AirEase, Armstrong Air, Concord and Ducane, along with MagicPak; a thru the wall apartment package unit).
All AlliedAir furnaces come from the Lennox Marshalltown Iowa furnace plant except the oil furnaces. The coils come from ADP in Miss... Lennox owns ADP. The AH's come from ADP also... albeit sometime (nobody including AlliedAir corporate will say when), the plant in SC will start making AH's. The AirEase and Armstrong Air AC and HP and small package units come from Orangeberg SC as well as the MagicPak units... the Ducane and Concord AC and HP units come from Mexico.

I can also say the AlliedAir products are a good value. If one just HAS to have the latest and most exotic bells and whistles... well AlliedAir does not offer them. AlliedAir product ARE dependable when installed properly... Which we all know the installation is more important than the product.

The other thing I would add: The supplier you deal with is as important (or more so) than the equipment line. A good supply house can help your business, a bad supply house can break your business.

[clifpaul]

[GrizzlyB]

[QUOTE=Coil making is a manufacturing process... each co does it their way. Key is thickness of CO tubing... and QC during manufacturing. Some co's have gone from 3/8 co tubing to 5/16 or even 1/4 tubing... good and bad issues here. A few (Goodman/Amana and Trane/Am-Std) have gone to all aluminum coils... jury is still out on this. Nordyne group is trying 'micro-channel' coils... similar to automobile coils... LOTS of issues with this design... and lots of failures so far... jury is still VERY out on this. more important than the product.[/QUOTE]

I may need to start a new thread for this, but what do you know about the aluminum coils? Ive seen the micro-channel coils, and theoretically it seems like it would work well and even though the aluminum isnt as tough as copper the aluminum in the coil looks thicker. I would be against an aluminum coil made like the traditional copper coils (I think it would be too thin). I k ow you said the jury is out, but just interested in what youve heard.

[clifpaul]

The aluminum coils are okay. They work. Do they work as good as copper? IMHO too soon to tell. But I've warrantied quite a few of them.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I may need to start a new thread for this, but what do you know about the aluminum coils? Ive seen the micro-channel coils, and theoretically it seems like it would work well and even though the aluminum isnt as tough as copper the aluminum in the coil looks thicker. I would be against an aluminum coil made like the traditional copper coils (I think it would be too thin). I k ow you said the jury is out, but just interested in what youve heard.

Do a search, there are some threads about conventional construction aluminum coils. Also back in the 1980's GE made aluminum coils... some of them are STILL going today... yes, 20, even 30+ years on an evap coil. Hard to believe...

Do a search on micro-channel coils also... multiple threads on this. Issues with being pressure sensitive, one cannot pump down into them, leaky, and HYPER sensitive to charge... do NOT overcharge. IMO not a good choice for hacks or even casually trained techs.

[Frosty28]

I have seen my employer who sells a lot of Goodman/Amana switch nameplates regularly. We have had customers that specifically stated they do not want a Goodman, so they sell them an Amana. Supply house ships a Goodman equivalent along with new tags.

Seems real deceptive and shady to me and it will probably catch up to them. Not my decision though.

[clifpaul]

I've seen that happen before. With Goodman and ICP /Carrier stuff too.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I have seen my employer who sells a lot of Goodman/Amana switch nameplates regularly. We have had customers that specifically stated they do not want a Goodman, so they sell them an Amana. Supply house ships a Goodman equivalent along with new tags.

Seems real deceptive and shady to me and it will probably catch up to them. Not my decision though.

Well... it has not caught up with them for longer than we have been alive. Folks do not do enough research IMO.

The difference between Goodman and Amana (other than paint color, model #'s, and tags) is the warranty and price.

I went to the Goodman plant in Houston a while back... they will roll out the red carpet for you. If one carefully observes what is going on... they will learn what is REALLY going on.

In my opinion (probably a bit biased)... AlliedAir stands out; They will honestly tell you which product lines they promote as economy grade and better grade... and they will honestly tell you how to sell each in their perxpective markets. Better IMO than trying to hide which products come from which manufacturer.

[socotech]

Whay about Tempstar? That's a Carrier product? ICP I think.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Whay about Tempstar? That's a Carrier product? ICP I think.

Carrier owns ICP. Personally I am not familiar with how that relationship (Carrier and ICP) works... anyone know?

[clifpaul]

Not really sure myself. All I know is that they are both owned by United Technologies.

[arc8]

Since i work with carrier products, i've have some thoughts.

United Technology: owns Carrier, Bryant, Payne, all ICP products.

Carrier has their own proprietary designs that they do not share with the others under UTX, and so on with Bryant and Tempstar (ICP).

But, Payne eventually gets them years down the road after Carrier develops more technology for themselves. Payne does not advertise as much either.

Bryant, OTOH, develops their own technologies that mimics Carrier, they are very similar (Infinity vs Evolution, etc...).

Tempstar is the top flagship of the ICP products. They have their own proprietary designs as well. I've heard they have incorporated their HX into Carrier's new short furnaces!

All these new 35" furnaces are basically identical: Carrier, Bryant, Payne, Tempstar, etc.... Like some others have said, each line are very much similar with certain models, and each has their own base models.

But, Payne is the only one that doesn't have many models to choose from due its lower class, but not lower quality. All components are the same (furnaces and AC). All Evap coils are the same across the brands.

Some are USA products and some MEX products, but they still have fairly above good QC.

Anyone else with info, please add. Thanks.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Just a refresher... I remember Tempstar and Comfortmaker are part of ICP (international comfort products)... which other brand names are there?

[arc8]

Just a refresher... I remember Tempstar and Comfortmaker are part of ICP (international comfort products)... which other brand names are there?

These are the others: Arcoaire, Day & Night, Heil and Keeprite.

[ga-hvac-tech]

These are the others: Arcoaire, Day & Night, Heil and Keeprite.

So ICO includes: ArcoAire, Comfortmaker, Day & Night, Heil, Keeprite, and Temstar... that is six brands under one roof.

Is/are most of the equipment mostly the same? Other than color, model#, label, etc?

[arc8]

See http://www.icpusa.com/ for info.

[ga-hvac-tech]

See http://www.icpusa.com/ for info.

Looks similar to: http://www.alliedair.com

[clifpaul]

Yeah except for the color, model #'s and stickers all the ICP stuff I've seen has been the same. Btw ICP owns Grandaire too.

[John Markl]

The aluminum coils are okay. They work. Do they work as good as copper? IMHO too soon to tell. But I've warrantied quite a few of them.

One of the primary advantages of all-aluminum coils, is that you get rid of the "dissimilar metals" issue.

Think about it. Where do most coils leak?

At the tube sheet.....

Modern copper resi coils aren't field repairable anyway.

[John Markl]

nordyne has a bundle.

Nordyne seems to have focused on old appliance brand names, that the AARP crowd easily recognizes. They may be smarter than we think.