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  1. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    So the “stand your ground” law states that you can defend yourself with deadly force unless you are acting unreasonably such that you started the fight.

    A speed limit says you can go that speed unless you are acting unreasonably such that you cannot see in front of you.

    Acting unreasonably causes one to not be protected under certain laws…and probably all laws.

    Here’s another: Jeff Gordon get cited for exceeding the speed limit while rushing a life threatening accident victim to the hospital. He fights the ticket and wins because the judge felt he used prudence while exceeding the speed limit and acted reasonably to save a life. This did not actually happen, it is an example of how laws can be broken under reasonability.

    Cops use reasonability all the time while accessing people’s action to determine whether they should be cited or arrested. In other words, reasonability supercedes law all the time.
    Yeah it is "written" in the stand your ground law. It is not added on based on yours or anyone else's opinion. That is the point.

    There is no such thing on the speed limit law as the word "reasonable" at least here in GA and I doubt elsewhere. You can get a ticket for going to fast. Going to fast for conditions, driving while impaired, etc. but not for bieng "unreasonable". Gees where did you latch on to this word which is supposed to trump the law. We don't use the word "unreasonable" if you are dring the speed limit in a down pour or in fog.

    The word my friend for the final time is "too fast for conditions" comprende. I hope you can understand that. This law as far as I know in on the books in all the states and countries around the world and they do not use the word you love to use "unreasonable" get off it and get a life. It might be resonable to drive 60 mph in a 4 lane divided highway but the speed limit is 45 but that won't get you out of a ticket. Like I said and say again for the hard to understand. The word here is too fast for conditions. Gees. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  2. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    Would you like me to use IMO more so you don't get so confused?
    Just the word would be fine. No confusing here on our part its just that your opinion appears to you to always be the fact and thats how you defend it. Thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  3. #159
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    After all that you have no clue what I’m talking about.

    How could you possibly understand what happened that night if you can’t even understand me.? I never said the word unreasonable is written into any law. You just make sh!t up as you go along.

    I’m through with your denseness. Glad I could be here for you hyenas to pile onto.

  4. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    OK. Man has a concealed weapon. He walks up to another man he has a grudge with. He confronts him in a dark, isolated area and tells him to go away. Fight breaks out. He gets his butt kicked. He draws his concealed weapon and kills the man. He tries to use the “stand your ground” law to explain his actions. However his unreasonable actions preceding the event negate his ability to be protected under the “stand your ground” law. He now faces manslaughter or murder charges due to his unreasonable actions.

    Another one: Speed limit is 45mph. Heavy fog reduces visibility to 50’. Can you be written up for going 45mph? Yes, because it is unreasonable and unsafe. There you go, unreasonable trumps the law.
    You can find the full text of the stand your ground law on the net. I thought I had a link but it may be on my work computer and Im not going to lug it out just for a link.... Trust me... google search... stand your ground law text.... and you can find it.

    Anyhow... while I believe zimmerman will get off because of the scary black man syndrome america suffers..... reading the text of the law I dont think stand your ground will hold up because of his pursuit of martin

    Here... I looked up the link again...... cause I know many of you are too lazy to look up the link yourself...and a few of the folks on here probably cant use a search engine.

    Going askew for a moment.

    Im serious about some folks not being able to use a search engine. I know guys at work who want manuals or info on something on the net and they say they cant find it.....and I go on the net and within 2 minutes or less I have the information they need plus a boatload more....... its either laziness or stupidity.

    Back on topic....

    Anyhow... I looked up the link..... was going to try and find another one because of the name of this law firm where the statute text is at..... Hussein and Webber...... everyone will claim the text is fake because of the Hussein...

    Buffoons.........lol

    "Thats an Obama website"......lol
    YOU SHALL REAP WHAT YOU HAVE _______ SOWN

  5. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    After all that you have no clue what I’m talking about.

    How could you possibly understand what happened that night if you can’t even understand me.? I never said the word unreasonable is written into any law. You just make sh!t up as you go along.

    I’m through with your denseness. Glad I could be here for you hyenas to pile onto.
    You are the one who is full of it and cannot read or comprehend. You gave an example of someone driving the speed limit in the fog and the cop would give him a ticket because it was "unreasonable" to be driving that fast. BS, BS Brian. How dense and stupid do you believe the readers are here.

    You said: "Another one: Speed limit is 45mph. Heavy fog reduces visibility to 50’. Can you be written up for going 45mph? Yes, because it is unreasonable and unsafe. There you go, unreasonable trumps the law". NOT SO Brian

    The law is not trumped. You break the law by "driving to fast for conditions". That is the law and you broke it by driving to fast in the fog and no law is trumped. Gees you are a real case. Can't even spoon feed you the truth. You don't know real facts when you see them. I am giving up on you until you can at least admit you are wrong when you are and comprehend what are the laws and what are not. Unbelievable. Thank you, thank you very much
    Last edited by glennac; 12-12-2012 at 09:37 PM.
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  6. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by exreo View Post
    I think it's easy to see what happened here. It's not a mystery. Treyvon Martin, a wanna-be thug, went to the store to score some skittles and some pot. As he walks back to the hood he is smoked up and acting a little strange. That's what Zim told the dispatcher. Zim pulls up and questions him and Martin takes offense to it immediately. Martin just doesn't act on it at that point. Martin is just about to his house, and he turns around and sees Zim still watching him. Zim retreats back to his car. Martin checks out Zim one more time and doesn't see him, but Martin is fuming mad at Zim for watching him. In Martin's mind Zim is just another white racist that doesn't like blacks. And you can bet that Martin was up to his eyeballs in victim mentality. Martin makes his way towards Zim. The first punch may very well have been a sucker punch, but Zim isn't injured so bad that he can't fight back. There was an eyewitness that said, "These 2 guys are on the ground wrestling in my back yard". But maybe he can't fight back as well after being injured. Zim, fearing that he will be punched to death or seriously injured, draws his weapon and shoots Martin.

    For all you libertarians out there, this is why smoking pot is dangerous. It causes you to lose a certain degree of objectivity about the situation you are in. Martin failed to calculate that Zimmerman might have a gun. Of course you could argue that even if Martin wasn't stoned, he still may have failed to consider the possibility that Zimmerman had a gun. Or, maybe Martin was so enraged that he didn't care that Zim might have a gun, and Martin figured he could easily overpower him. Prior to this point, all of Martin's thuggery, getting in trouble at school and doing petty theft was probably met without any resistance.

    Also, since Martin was returning to the house with pot smoke smell on him, you have to wonder if he, his ole man, and his ole man's girlfriend were all getting high at the same time? But this is just speculation on my part.
    You have no clue.

    If I were to pick an opponent (me being a 50'ish man) I would want nothing more than someone smoking pot coming at me. It would make The Matrix look like slow motion. Could distract him with a 'Hey look, a bag of chips.' Smoking pot causes you to loose a degree of objectivity? Shoot, why do you think you smoke it anyway?


    Stand Your Ground.


    Florida’s “Stand Your Ground” Statute

    The 2011 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI

    CRIMES

    Chapter 776

    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—

    A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

    (1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or....
    http://www.husseinandwebber.com/flor...d-statute.html
    Never argue with a fool, onlookers may not be able to tell the difference. —Mark Twain

  7. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by printer2 View Post
    You have no clue.

    If I were to pick an opponent (me being a 50'ish man) I would want nothing more than someone smoking pot coming at me. It would make The Matrix look like slow motion. Could distract him with a 'Hey look, a bag of chips.' Smoking pot causes you to loose a degree of objectivity? Shoot, why do you think you smoke it anyway? Stand Your Ground.
    http://www.husseinandwebber.com/flor...d-statute.html
    Well printer what you say about pot may be true all things else being equal but they were far from it. Zimmerman was overweight and out of shape while Travon towered over him and in much better shape and agile. He could I'm sure swing 4 or 5 punches for everyone of Zimmerman's who didn't stand a chance against the younger stronger out of his mind Martin. Pot makes some folks do stupid things and apparently make stupid posts LOL. Anyhow that is the way I see it IMHO. Thank you, thank you very much
    "I could have ended the war in a month. I could have made North Vietnam look like a mud puddle."
    "I have little interest in streamlining government or in making it more efficient, for I mean to reduce its size. I do not undertake to promote welfare, for I propose to extend freedom. My aim is not to pass laws, but to repeal them. It is not to inaugurate new programs, but to cancel old ones that do violence to the Constitution."
    Barry Goldwater

  8. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    After all that you have no clue what I’m talking about.

    How could you possibly understand what happened that night if you can’t even understand me.? I never said the word unreasonable is written into any law. You just make sh!t up as you go along.

    I’m through with your denseness. Glad I could be here for you hyenas to pile onto.
    Brian, what you actually stated earlier in this thread:

    Reasonable supercedes legal in any court of law.

    Maybe you misspoke, or worded that poorly, but you seem to be stubbornly defending that futile and incorrect point.

    There is room for discretion 'reasonable common sense' in enforcement, judicial decision, and jury decision. But it is not often enough applied. And it has been pointed out to you that 'reasonable circumstances' are usually written into the laws. That is the truth.

    As for the Zim/Martin incident,.. none of us really knows how the actual confrontation went down. I am open minded about the whole deal, could have been murder or manslaughter or self defense. The burden of proof is legally on the prosecution, seems like a very weak case so far.

    This is not personal for me, interesting, but not personal. I think Zimmerman and Martin are both creepy individuals of different types.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

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  9. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    Brian, what you actually stated earlier in this thread:

    Reasonable supercedes legal in any court of law.

    Maybe you misspoke, or worded that poorly, but you seem to be stubbornly defending that futile and incorrect point.

    There is room for discretion 'reasonable common sense' in enforcement, judicial decision, and jury decision. But it is not often enough applied. And it has been pointed out to you that 'reasonable circumstances' are usually written into the laws. That is the truth.

    As for the Zim/Martin incident,.. none of us really knows how the actual confrontation went down. I am open minded about the whole deal, could have been murder or manslaughter or self defense. The burden of proof is legally on the prosecution, seems like a very weak case so far.

    This is not personal for me, interesting, but not personal. I think Zimmerman and Martin are both creepy individuals of different types.
    I tried to explain that to him, but he doesn't quite understand it.

    Whether Z is guilty or not, we will have to wait for a Jury to decide.
    The Last four letters


    American = I Can, Republican = I Can, Democrats = Rats


    any questions

  10. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmac00 View Post
    I tried to explain that to him, but he doesn't quite understand it.

    Whether Z is guilty or not, we will have to wait for a Jury to decide.
    I think it must be a matter of mis-communication, Brian will probably check in later and agree with us.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

    "Who ARE you people? And WHAT are you doing in my SWAMP!?" Shrek

    Service calls submitted after 3PM will be posted the next business day.

    I give free estimates [Wild Ass Guesses] over the phone.

    "I am sorry for interrupting, please continue with your quarreling" Some chick on TV

  11. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tool-Slinger View Post
    There is room for discretion 'reasonable common sense' in enforcement, judicial decision, and jury decision. But it is not often enough applied. And it has been pointed out to you that 'reasonable circumstances' are usually written into the laws. That is the truth.
    This is exactly what I have been saying. A judge or jury can apply or not apply a law as they see fit. Just because someone broke a law doesn’t mean they will be found guilty of it. Furthermore, language about common sense and reasonability does not have to be written in the letter of the law for a judge or jury to acquit someone who obviously broke that law.

    An extreme example; A cop is shot by a group of thugs that hate cops. He is critically injured, bleeding profusely and will die if not rushed to the hospital. You come upon him and the thugs will not give you their car so you can save his life. Legally they are not required to either. They say to call an ambulance. So you draw the policeman’s pistol and steal/borrow their car at gunpoint to rush the officer to the hospital. Do you think there is a judge or jury that would convict you on grand theft auto with a use of a firearm special circumstances charge?

    My point is that all laws can and are enforced or dismissed due to the circumstances that surround the event. Call it reasonability, common sense, prudence, being a hero, a concerned citizen or no ill intent.

    Whether calling it “reasonability trumps law” is not wording it correctly is a matter of opinion. That is the way I see the above example.

  12. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    This is exactly what I have been saying. A judge or jury can apply or not apply a law as they see fit. Just because someone broke a law doesn’t mean they will be found guilty of it. Furthermore, language about common sense and reasonability does not have to be written in the letter of the law for a judge or jury to acquit someone who obviously broke that law.

    An extreme example; A cop is shot by a group of thugs that hate cops. He is critically injured, bleeding profusely and will die if not rushed to the hospital. You come upon him and the thugs will not give you their car so you can save his life. Legally they are not required to either. They say to call an ambulance. So you draw the policeman’s pistol and steal/borrow their car at gunpoint to rush the officer to the hospital. Do you think there is a judge or jury that would convict you on grand theft auto with a use of a firearm special circumstances charge?

    My point is that all laws can and are enforced or dismissed due to the circumstances that surround the event. Call it reasonability, common sense, prudence, being a hero, a concerned citizen or no ill intent.

    Whether calling it “reasonability trumps law” is not wording it correctly is a matter of opinion. That is the way I see the above example.
    You have no idea how the system works, do you

    in your scenario above, you have several problems. ONE, the thugs could say YOU shot the officers, after all there is a GROUP of them and only one of you...it would be their word against yours. YOU ARE ALL READY SCREWED. assuming there are no other witnesses, or there are no witnesses that will testify on your behalf. Either way you just opened up a legal can of worms that will probably cost your house to defend. NEXT


    Do you think there is a judge or jury that would convict you on grand theft auto with a use of a firearm special circumstances charge?
    Judges don't convict anyone. Jury's do that, or if you decide you don't want a jury, then you will get a "bench trial" then the judge will act as the jury and make a decision as to guilt or innocence.

    SECOND it will be up to a District Attorney to decide whether to bring charges against you. You maybe arrested, then released or remanded to jail for further prosecution

    However, lets assume you were arrested and charged with stealing the thugs car and using the LEO's firearm, both of which are illegal. A jury has the right to use something called "Jury Nullification". This is a case where you are charged with a crime, you obviously (or not) broke the law, but a Jury deems your actions where necessary to save the officers (or any citizens) life.

    there is a couple more problems. A judge CAN decide that, even though a jury found you innocent and "set the charges aside" HE CAN "vacate the decision" and still convict you of a crime. (almost never happens, but a Judge has that option) Another issue is that most Judges do NOT instruct a jury in the Rule of Law concerning Jury Nullification. So most Juries have no idea they have that option.

    You really should go talk to an Attorney or if your really boarded some day, go sit in on a trial.
    The Last four letters


    American = I Can, Republican = I Can, Democrats = Rats


    any questions

  13. #169
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    Amen to that jmac. I have tried but given up trying to have a rational discussion with Brian.

    It appears to be next to impossible with a dedicated liberal. Minds made up and logic means nothing. Good luck. Thank you very much

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