View Poll Results: What do you think?

Voters
15. You may not vote on this poll
  • Highly Recommend

    12 80.00%
  • Too Expensive, not worth it

    2 13.33%
  • Breaks down and unreliable

    0 0%
  • Nothing special, same as all the other systems.

    0 0%
  • Too hard to install

    1 6.67%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Results 1 to 13 of 24
  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352

    VRF Systems - Would you recommend one?

    We have a project here that is a potential for those City Multi-split systems. We looked at both Daikin and Mitsubishi options (24 tons). I know these systems have been around for 20-30 years in other countries, but since they only been in the US for like the last 5 years we haven't gotten much usage information on them. So I thought I would ask for your guy's opinions on the matter.

    Questions:
    1. Are they reliable?
    2. Is there really an energy savings (big enough to outset the upfront cost)? ROI?

    Summary of building... two story, 12 zones (design requirement), with existing (2) 25 ton heat pump package units on the roof. Other options include WSHP and VAV system with reheat.
    You can call me Sam

    It should be a crime to be a mechanical engineer in San Diego
    Summer Design Temperature: 83 F Dry Bulb ~ 69 F Wet Bulb (California Climate Zone 7)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    up in the hizzy
    Posts
    1,296
    Quote Originally Posted by hcong View Post
    We have a project here that is a potential for those City Multi-split systems.

    Questions:
    1. Are they reliable?

    They are reliable when new but with time all sort of problems arrive. No every contractor knows how to work on them units, finding qualify service and repair could be a challenge after the warranty expires and parts are very expensive

    2. Is there really an energy savings (big enough to outset the upfront cost)? ROI?

    Dont count on substantial energy savings compared to a traditional system.


    I would stay away from Mitsubishi but that's just my opinion
    I would stay with package units

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    Quote Originally Posted by valdelocc View Post
    I would stay with package units
    Why is that?
    You can call me Sam

    It should be a crime to be a mechanical engineer in San Diego
    Summer Design Temperature: 83 F Dry Bulb ~ 69 F Wet Bulb (California Climate Zone 7)

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Marco Island, Fl
    Posts
    720
    We have been installing and servicing Daikin VRV systems for about 8 years.

    We have found them highly reliable. Our customers aree reposting 75%-80% reduction in energy usage.

    We have repaired a 3 story bank/office building that was engineered wrong and installed even worse. Neither the engineer or installer had speced or installed a Daikin before.

    After 6 months and $$$$$$ to make things right, the owner is now so happy with the performance, he specified them for their newest building.

    I would recommend choosing a very qualified installer because you will want to maintain a relationship for maintenance and service.

    Also, we are showing ways that they can ofFset the cost of the VRV systems by lower constructon costs. Smaller electrical services, lower building heights, smaller generators, smaller switch gears.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    evansville indiana
    Posts
    942
    +1 on being educated on the system your installing .

    We have installed both mitsu and daiken .

    Prior to both we were educated by the manufactur and had their rep,another local contractor, perform the startup and check out .

    I never ran a warranty call because of equipment failures. I did run some because of installation issues. The issues where ,,,,we used a sensor in the return as a room sensor as we were choosing setpoints at a remote location. The sensor was downstream of the outside air tap so we were actually measuring mixed air ....

    That is not an equipment problem .


    Installation is key in these systems . It must be done by the book.
    mikeacman

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    25
    Ive installed one Daikin VRV and have been to city multi class in NC Im sold on them so far. The Technolgy is unreal and so far the system has had no problems after int. startup.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    In a boiler room
    Posts
    6,915
    Company I work for put a city multi in 9 years ago. It was actually only the second city multi in the US. We put in several more this year.

    Onw major problem so far was on the 9 year old system, compressor locked up. These things literally never shut off, just ramp up and down according to demand.

    They also have had a couple direct lightning strikes which took out several boards each time. The building is on a hill, a lightning magnet.

    The building owner liked it so well, a major addition also got City Multi, he didn't even price anything else.

    This is definitely the future of HVAC, like it or not. Simultaneous heat and cool with a 2 pipe Refrigerant system has a ton of advantages over rooftop units or chiller/boiler systems.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Mid-Mo
    Posts
    3,429
    We have 8 systems in I believe and haven't had a problem yet. The oldest system is only 2 years old though. Agreed with everyone that you HAVE to know what you're doing when you install it.

    Side note: we have 7 daikin and one Mitsu systems that do the entire heating and cooling for building. Biggest ones are approximately 30-35 tons.

    Really amazing technology! B

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    Yeah, we just met with the building owner and one of them is German (Europe had these for a while) and it is pretty much a done deal. I made some phone calls and only negatives on heard was that the condensate pumps in the fan coil go out but nothing bad about the outdoor units.

    This will be our first time we ever design a system like this; so we will see how it goes. Boss took a Mitsubishi class and we are using the sales engineer like no other.

    Thanks for all your inputs.
    You can call me Sam

    It should be a crime to be a mechanical engineer in San Diego
    Summer Design Temperature: 83 F Dry Bulb ~ 69 F Wet Bulb (California Climate Zone 7)

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    In a boiler room
    Posts
    6,915
    Quote Originally Posted by hcong View Post
    Yeah, we just met with the building owner and one of them is German (Europe had these for a while) and it is pretty much a done deal. I made some phone calls and only negatives on heard was that the condensate pumps in the fan coil go out but nothing bad about the outdoor units.

    This will be our first time we ever design a system like this; so we will see how it goes. Boss took a Mitsubishi class and we are using the sales engineer like no other.

    Thanks for all your inputs.
    Very important to follow their pressure test and evacuation procedures and document it. They will ask for it on the final commissioning report.

    Are you using the R2 series?

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    352
    We are using Daikin REYQ240PBTJ with 12 zones of mixed FXMQ & FXZQ. We have 12 branch selectors, and 12 nav. controllers. We have a MUA, exhaust fan, and Daikin VAMs for the OA requirements.

    We aren't the contractors, so we just need to make sure the 3-pipe and 2-pipe BS are not too long. The building is only 2 stories so we don't have to worry about vertical max length as much. Condensate lines will be a pain...
    You can call me Sam

    It should be a crime to be a mechanical engineer in San Diego
    Summer Design Temperature: 83 F Dry Bulb ~ 69 F Wet Bulb (California Climate Zone 7)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    21
    Our company learned this the hard way too......MITSUBISHI'S ARE THE ONLY MINI SPLIT & VRF'S WE INSTALL NOW! CITY MUTI IS A GREAT PRODUCT.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    mississippi
    Posts
    117
    i agree

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