Regular Guest
Happy Holidays, everyone! A client requested ventilation only for a dog daycare business, which I designed into a 1600 cfm exhaust fan, with 8' ceilings at 4 air changes per hour (this is a bit more than 4). He now requested air conditioning and heating as well. My question revolves around the best way to design this system. How should I choose equipment? Should I do what I initially thought as the solution: put a conventional gas furnace with ac and a separate exhaust with a fresh air louver in the wall and/or outside air in the return? or should I check into a makup air cooling/ ac? Customer expressed a low budget..... I am inspecting the design of another pet "resort" later today to see what others have done. Thanks in advance. cp
Professional Member*
Keep in mind all of the dog hair you will encounter when you do your design. How much ventilation does the customer need? I don't know why you would need 4 changes per hour. Only dogs live there. I would probably go with return air option with dampers and a low ambient stat to close the dampers in really cold weather. Low budget always makes me worry that I could be wasting my time.
Professional Member
moved thread to tech to tech commercial
Professional Member
How about a erv/ energy wheel we take care of a large pet resort all package units have a erv attached them
Professional Member
Get and install equipment where it is easy to clean
Regular Guest
thanks guys. I thought 4 ac/hr was the minimum. and up until yesterday, all he wanted was a quote on a ventilation system so my original design was that. but now he's gonna do it right, if he wants to hire me anyways.and yes, an air bear will be installed.
Professional Member*
Figure out what your load calculation says you need and then upsize it with an ERV system. figure what kind of a load the animals may put on the system. Dogs don't sweat do they?
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Regular Guest
Erv unless his gas and electric meter have turbo bearings .
It will pay for itself in a short time .
Heating ,cooling ,humidifying ad dehuming all the outside air is gonna cost a fortune vs erv
We take care of a large humane society . They have a sea of AAON erv units with heat/cool . if they just brought in outside air to make up for the exhaust required they would be closed due to energy costs....
The units to do what you wish are available ...already made to go....
Professional Member*
dont forget about dog piss. i service a doggy day care. evap coils falling apart. nasty stank smell
Regular Guest
It is usually recommended that the dog kennel area's have 100% conditioned outside air as well as exhaust air. This area is usually kept separate from business office areas. In some instances there are separate rooms for observation that will not require 100% OSA, however some OSA and proper air changes per hour should be considered, along with the use of exhaust air so as to kept this room in a negative condition.
As for the business area this should be designed as a separate conditioned space.
I once did a 30,000 Sq Ft Animal campus located in the desert of Palm Spring, CA. which had radiant heat in the kennel area's in addition to heat and air conditioning with AAON 100% OSA units based on a 110 degree outside ambient air.
You definitely should consider some sort of humidity control and hot gas bypass for low ambient conditions.
As for a low budget, its difficult to put a price against comfort.
Regular Guest
This client is really turning into One of those cheap ass guys that doesn't even want to do it nearly the way he's suppose to. He told me that he will be the only business that walks dogs every two hours, so urine wont be an issue, as a response to my suggesting specialized equipment. So after that, I conceded to quote him a standard system with two Lifebreath HRV's (I'm in Massachusetts), and now he wants me to quote him on just the a/c and a standard exhaust vent with a supply louver in the wall, which is what his drawing that he sent me was of . I guess I can either forget him, but I really need this job, or give him the Lifebreaths and a few minisplits with low ambient kits, just to get what I can out of him and then forget him too. the best business decision would be to stick to my guns or forget him, but I am starting up and really need this money. however I don't want to mess up so bad he has problems. I frickin hate dealin with cheap asses like this, but it seems like almost everyone is like that these days. why cant I find a nice client who wants it done right the first time and will pay a fair, but competitive price for it.... dammmmmmn it!
Professional Member*
Not only do they want it done cheap but they blame you for it not working like it would if done right. Sometimes it's best to walk away and let somebody else have the headache of trying to satisfy an unsatisfiable cheap customer.
Regular Guest
I agree. (wait for it....... ) BUT (yup, there it is) I am hurting for money and he needs this done. it's money waiting for someone, and I need it bad. I am borrowing gas money from my MOTHER !!! (should I admit that?).... simply put he needs to consider humidity no matter how he decides to do it. he knows he needs fresh air because of his insistence on ventilation,... Thanks for all the help guys. Happy Holidays, and MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL !!!
Regular Guest
If that's the case, well I can understand your position then.
You definitely need him to state his criteria in writing, and if possible have him provide a drawing along with specifications based on his requirements.
After he has provided this information you can reply with a request for information which address and list your itemized concerns. Also per each concern, make you recommendations very short and in a direct manner. Do not list price for these items.
Have him reply again in writing. You will then make a revision to you original quotation or estimate based on his input.
Take his final decision and a simple drawing which you will submit for plan check and review at the city where this work is to be done, and hopefully with a stamped approval you can obtain a permit for the HVAC work based on his criteria.
Have him agree to his own design and accept full responsibility for the performance of the HVAC system.
Hope this helps.
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