The Movie"Lincoln"

[motoguy128]

I was using sarcasm. I agree with you on this

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[exreo]

just curious? What would you have done to end slavery? what could anyone have done????

I would have made the life of a slave a paradise in the north compared to the south. I would have given perks to companies that hired slaves at white working man's wages. All the slaves in the south would have bolted for the good jobs in the north. Then I would put a 10-year moratorium on any more blacks coming to America by ship from Africa. That would have the effect in the south of either the white guys picking their own cotton or else giving decent wages and working conditions to slaves.

I thought all the libs (not you because I believe you're a conservative) say we can't legislate morality? How can we legislate blacks being equal to whites then?

[exreo]

But come on... you're "free" at that factory in the north.

We don't have slaves or hazardous factory labor anymore. We just give those at the lowest social rung a welfare checks and/or SS check and food stamps.

Oh we still have slaves at factories, and now we even have white ones. Maybe you've never had to work to the pace set by the assembly line.

[jmac00]

I would have made the life of a slave a paradise in the north compared to the south. I would have given perks to companies that hired slaves at white working man's wages. All the slaves in the south would have bolted for the good jobs in the north. Then I would put a 10-year moratorium on any more blacks coming to America by ship from Africa. That would have the effect in the south of either the white guys picking their own cotton or else giving decent wages and working conditions to slaves.

I thought all the libs (not you because I believe you're a conservative) say we can't legislate morality? How can we legislate blacks being equal to whites then?

Interesting idea. what do you think a Plantation owner would have done to his slaves if he knew they would attempt to run north. I mean worse than what many plantation owners did anyway. I think there would have been MANY more deaths.

Morality is a God given thing. It can't be legislated. But a Government can pass laws making it illegal to abuse other people. Enforcement is a whole other ball game.

[ga-hvac-tech]

I would have made the life of a slave a paradise in the north compared to the south. I would have given perks to companies that hired slaves at white working man's wages. All the slaves in the south would have bolted for the good jobs in the north. Then I would put a 10-year moratorium on any more blacks coming to America by ship from Africa. That would have the effect in the south of either the white guys picking their own cotton or else giving decent wages and working conditions to slaves.

I thought all the libs (not you because I believe you're a conservative) say we can't legislate morality? How can we legislate blacks being equal to whites then?

Interesting idea. what do you think a Plantation owner would have done to his slaves if he knew they would attempt to run north. I mean worse than what many plantation owners did anyway. I think there would have been MANY more deaths.

Morality is a God given thing. It can't be legislated. But a Government can pass laws making it illegal to abuse other people. Enforcement is a whole other ball game.

Interesting comparison of views... IMO worthy of discussion:

On the one hand; govt should 'meddle' with things to fix a so called 'injustice'...
On the other hand; morality is something that is within someone (GA agrees it is from God and God given), and morality CANNOT be legislated.
MeThinks this discussion has been debated many times throughout history, in many societies and many countries (both still present and failed).

So lets look a little deeper at this discussion;

First: Can anyone show me a place where govt meddling has only given positive results over the long term, without more meddling being necessary to fix a secondary problem that was the result of the initial meddling?
What history shows me (GA) is when the govt meddles, they create a new problem, many times a worse problem than the one they tried to solve. So after govt fixes problem A, they have to go fix problem B... only thing is now we have problem C... fix it and we have problem D... and so on and on and on. If the govt had stayed out of it... problem A would have been solved by the market place and B,C,D, etc would not have happened.
Moral: govt meddling is destructive

OK, so how does the market place fix a problem like abuse of human labor; what is called slavery in the South pre-civil war. (I bet it would not take even a grade school graduate to find labor abuse through-out history, even today). First we need to realize slavery is ill-defined (and going to Wikipedia is not the way to define a word... rather a way to collect canon fodder for a debate). Slavery is when someone is not free. Simple. However how could one be totally free all the time? Not gonna happen in this world. One has to make choices to live.
For one; one has the choice of working to eat and have a roof over their head, with heat and AC. Refuse to work... and we all know what happens (unless one figures out how to get someone else to pay their way... like voting for a liberal).
So in reality, we are all slaves to a degree... we are slaves to our expectations of life.

Now lets look at this a bit farther: What am I willing to give up to attain my goals (yes, it is a trade)?
Well, first maybe we need to define goals? Hmmm...
Is having $100million a goal? YEAH...
OK, what will I trade for that goal?
Obviously not many folks are willing to make the trade... or there would be a lot more folks with $100M in the bank. RIGHT... After all, the system wants us to think all we have to do is go to college, get the right education, work hard enough... and we can have anything we want... As we all know... not that easy.

So lets look at some more reasonable goals:
House, food, clothes, car, heat and AC, wifey, kids, extra $$$ to spend on things like a big TV, boat (well maybe the last 2 come before wifey and kids... naaah, we all know better than that... ), vacation, kids college, etc. I think we can agree these are realistic goals.
OK, what will I trade to reach these goals?
Simple: I will choose to discipline myself to follow a path to produce income to reach these goals. This path may include education, experience, labor, thinking, planning, etc... some of these may be fun and some may be boring (work is boring sometimes). The important thing is I choose to do these things to reach my goals.

In a sense, we are ALL SLAVES to the system, and this is just life.

So how does the market-place change this: Really it is simple... just requires a little long range thought:
Lets go back to the Plantations we discussed:
Plantation A is owned by an honest hard working moral (GA would say traditional TRUE Christian) who takes care of his labor.
Plantation B is owned by an arrogant selfish greedy schmo who thinks (and behaves) in a manor that says the only way to get ahead is to screw someone else out of something.

Plantation A has workers who understand what they have (a good boss who cares about them), and they work harder... they are more productive. The owner takes small steps along the way to assure the quality of his cotton is TOP GRADE, and as such is sold for TOP $$$. (Plantation A owner understands taking care of labor is an integral part of producing TOP GRADE cotton, thus making MORE $$$). The prevailing attitude at Plantation A is positive and harmonious (everyone gets along rather than trying to use each other).
Plantation B has workers who despise their boss (because the boss is a jerk), and they work only as much as they can get away with not doing (least necessary to get by)... they are less productive. The owner takes every step he can get away with to lower his costs of production... thus his cotton is sold as LOW GRADE, for LOW $$$. (Plantation B owner does not realize taking care of his labor is an integral part of producing good quality cotton... the quality is not important... only the $$$). The prevailing attitude at Plantation B is negative, deceitful, back-stabbing, usery, 'screw everyone', etc.

Now for the key: If the consumer (the one buying the cotton) has NO safety net... they are compelled to operate Lasse-faire (let the buyer beware) economic system, which is a tenant (foundation) of free markets. The result is the buyer is cautious of quality, after all it is their $$$. They (the consumer) know the higher grade cotton, while it costs more, is a better value because it will last longer. (Note not all high priced products are always better... the wise consumer shops value rather than price... and gets their $$$'s worth).

I am sure you can see where this is going: Over the short term Plantation B may "LOOK" like he is making more $$$... however over the long term Plantation A makes more $$$ and the jobs are more secure.

A side effect of this economic lesson is: Since Plantation B eventually goes out of business and Plantation A grows... the quality of life in the entire community grows to a higher level (quality of life is not measured in $$$ and things, rather the way folks believe, think, and the choices they make in life).

You see, the market place really does work... yet it works better when the govt stays OUT of things.
What I described above is what GA believes the founding fathers understood, and tried to create when they formed the USA.
Yet we now have a govt that meddles in everything (not for the good of the citizen, for the good of the individuals in govt), and as a result our lives suffer for it.
Get rid of big govt, and we will have a better life.

[toocoolforschool]

Figures. Lincoln never did well in theaters.

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good one.

[toocoolforschool]

Oh we still have slaves at factories, and now we even have white ones. Maybe you've never had to work to the pace set by the assembly line.

I used to work for toyota manufacturing, hardest work ever by far. stamping plant don't stop working period. Guy died after I left because a dye fell on him.

[geerair]

I used to work for toyota manufacturing, hardest work ever by far. stamping plant don't stop working period. Guy died after I left because a dye fell on him.

My old man spent years on aircraft assembly lines until one day he just walked off the line and happily spent the rest of working career in HVAC.

[exreo]

Interesting idea. what do you think a Plantation owner would have done to his slaves if he knew they would attempt to run north. I mean worse than what many plantation owners did anyway. I think there would have been MANY more deaths.

Morality is a God given thing. It can't be legislated. But a Government can pass laws making it illegal to abuse other people. Enforcement is a whole other ball game.

I still don't understand what libertarians mean by this. In the Old Testament men were not able to keep the law in the power of their flesh. But, never is the law mentioned as being something that is evil or undesirable. I'm talking specifically about the 10 commandments. Jesus Himself said, "I have not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it". I don't get why libertarians who call themselves Christians think it's OK to smoke pot and have sex with hookers--if they just darn well feel like it. I don't get that.

I mean I do think a lot of the stupid silly laws that congress and Obama impose are strangeling us and especially small businesses. I hate that law where they are doing away with regular light bulbs and replacing them with the CFR and LED bulbs. Who the heck are these morons to decide what type of light bulbs I can or can't have in my home? I could understand the libertarian mindset that wanted be free from these silly types of laws. But, I can't understand the libertarian mindset that wants to allow all types of immorality that generation after generation have understood to be evil and harmful. Libertarians are deceived because these types of behaviors lead to enslavement and not liberty. But I guess you could say that we can't force people to stop producing alcohol, and it is each individual's responsibility not to drink too much. Maybe 30,000 people killed each year from drunk drivers is a small price to pay for this individual liberty. I mean 300,000 people die each and every DAY in this world. But, then using the same libertarian logic, we should have smut shops on every street corner and pot shops in every strip mall shopping center and we should have hookers and brothels out the wazzo. Libertarians seem to really want to indulge the sins of the flesh. I don't understand libertarians--how they think this leads to freedom when it really leads to enslavement.

[ControlsInMT]

And here I thought it was only but a few years ago that Helena finally got indoor plumbing, live and learn.

It wouldn't surprise me to find a few around here that still don't!

[ga-hvac-tech]

I still don't understand what libertarians mean by this. In the Old Testament men were not able to keep the law in the power of their flesh. But, never is the law mentioned as being something that is evil or undesirable. I'm talking specifically about the 10 commandments. Jesus Himself said, "I have not come to do away with the law but to fulfill it". I don't get why libertarians who call themselves Christians think it's OK to smoke pot and have sex with hookers--if they just darn well feel like it. I don't get that.

I mean I do think a lot of the stupid silly laws that congress and Obama impose are strangeling us and especially small businesses. I hate that law where they are doing away with regular light bulbs and replacing them with the CFR and LED bulbs. Who the heck are these morons to decide what type of light bulbs I can or can't have in my home? I could understand the libertarian mindset that wanted be free from these silly types of laws. But, I can't understand the libertarian mindset that wants to allow all types of immorality that generation after generation have understood to be evil and harmful. Libertarians are deceived because these types of behaviors lead to enslavement and not liberty. But I guess you could say that we can't force people to stop producing alcohol, and it is each individual's responsibility not to drink too much. Maybe 30,000 people killed each year from drunk drivers is a small price to pay for this individual liberty. I mean 300,000 people die each and every DAY in this world. But, then using the same libertarian logic, we should have smut shops on every street corner and pot shops in every strip mall shopping center and we should have hookers and brothels out the wazzo. Libertarians seem to really want to indulge the sins of the flesh. I don't understand libertarians--how they think this leads to freedom when it really leads to enslavement.

I understand what you are saying.. yet it is something many do not... and over many decades of doing ministry work in the Christian faith... I find one cannot 'teach' these truths... they have to be revealed by God.
ARP has historically not been a good place for those revelations to happen.

IMO this country is headed for some divine discipline... we may already be in it. God is still on the Throne, and His kids are still being taken care of by Him. The world does not see this, they are blind... yet we do. Rest in His love over the holidays, then get busy when the new year comes.

Blessings to you Brother!

[exreo]

I understand what you are saying.. yet it is something many do not... and over many decades of doing ministry work in the Christian faith... I find one cannot 'teach' these truths... they have to be revealed by God.
ARP has historically not been a good place for those revelations to happen.

IMO this country is headed for some divine discipline... we may already be in it. God is still on the Throne, and His kids are still being taken care of by Him. The world does not see this, they are blind... yet we do. Rest in His love over the holidays, then get busy when the new year comes.

Blessings to you Brother!

I agree with you. Thanks for the good advice, and Merry Christmas & Happy New Year to you and your family.

[exreo]

It wouldn't surprise me to find a few around here that still don't!

They had plumbing at my hotel in Great Falls. And the heater worked really good.