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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    I'm looking to replace my 24 years old furnace Lennox G8D2-55-1 with a high efficiency one. I have asked two different installers with good recommendations and they advised two different models: Payne PG9MAB02460 and Goodman GMS90703BXA for the almost same price (device+installation).

    Both furnaces are 92-93% AFUE, however Goodman has 64,400 output BTU, when Payne has approximately 55,000BTU. The installer insisted that higher BTU would damage any device because my air ducts are only 8"x16" and 8"x18"(return), so due to the small opening, the blower will not move enough air through the furnace.

    I'm looking for your opinion regarding these devices in general and especially the noise they create and the reliability. I read other posts and found that the installer is more important that the device, but in my case I equally trust both installer, price is almost same, so I'd like to learn more about these devices, especially from your experience.

    Another question is the number of BTUs appropriate to my existing air ducts. The house is 18,000 square feet 2 floor (+basement) insulated house. The furnace is located in basement. There is only one incoming 8"x18" and one outgoing 8"x16" main air ducts.

    I'm sorry if my language is not too professional... I learned all these brand names just few days ago.


    Additional info that I found on the manufacturer's web sites:

    Payne web site provides following info for all PG9M models:
    ************************************************** *********
    * Factory-configured ready for upflow applications
    * 4-way multi-poise design for upflow, downflow, or horizontal installation
    * Installation in direct vent (2-pipe) or non-direct vent (1-pipe) applications
    * Installation flexibility, sidewall or vertical vent
    * Hot surface ignition
    * Propane convertible in all applications with approved kit
    * Manufactured (mobile) home convertible with approved kit in direct vent applications except for 140 size
    * Multi-speed, direct-drive PSC blower motor
    * Aluminized-steel primary heat exchanger
    * Polypropylene-laminated condensing heat exchanger
    * Electronic air cleaner and humidifier terminals
    * Electronic control center with blower cooling relay standard
    * Heavy galvanized pre-painted steel cabinet
    * Residential installations eligible for consumer financing through the Payne Credit Program


    Goodman web site provides following info:
    *****************************************
    The Goodman GMS9/GCS9 Single-Stage, Multi-Speed Gas Furnaces feature a patented aluminized-steel tubular heat exchanger and energy-efficient Hot Surface Ignition system. These furnaces are run-tested for heating or combination heating/cooling applications. With a corrosion-resistant, painted steel cabinet, these units can be installed in a variety of locations.

    * Corrosion-resistant, aluminized-steel tubular heat exchanger and stainless-steel recuperative coil for maximum efficiency
    * Multi-position installation—GMS9: upflow, horizontal right or left; GCS9: downflow, horizontal right or left
    * Energy-saving, reliable Hot Surface Ignition system, featuring a Norton® Mini-Igniter with patented adaptive learning algorithm to maximize igniter life
    * Energy-saving PSC, multi-speed, direct-drive blower motor
    * Quiet, corrosion-resistant, induced-draft blower
    * Integrated furnace control with diagnostics
    * Low-voltage terminal blocks
    * Combination redundant gas valve and regulator
    * Top venting is standard; alternate flue/vent located on right side (GMS9)
    * All models comply with California NOx Standards
    * Suitable for direct vent (2-pipe) or non-direct vent (1-pipe) applications
    * Foil-face insulation lines the heat exchanger compartment
    * Convenient left or right connection for gas and electric service
    * Bottom or side air inlet (GMS9)
    * Removable, solid bottom (GMS9)

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2000
    Location
    Eastern PA
    Posts
    68,962
    I usually say to go with the comparable brand that the installer of choice suggests, but there are a couple of things that stick out between these two particular models.

    There is a consumer class action lawsuit on the Payne because of the plastic coating on the secondary heat exchanger deteriorating. http://tbscases.com/tbscases/pressrelease.php?id=4

    The Goodman furnace has a ten year furnace replacement if the heat exchanger should fail and a lifetime warranty on the heat exchanger itself thereafter.

    [Edited by RoBoTeq on 11-09-2006 at 01:01 AM]
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    thanks for the info RoBoTeq.

    What about the air duct opening and BTU relation? What is the maximum BTU applicable for my case?

    How would you compare the noise made by these two models? I often work in the room next to the furnace and noise is one of the major factors for me.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,302
    Your old furnace has an output of 44,000 BTUs.

    Why in blazes are the dealers wanting to go so big with their furnaces? Did you add a lot of space on to the house? Put in leakier windows? Remove insulation????? Big equals less efficiency. That Goodman that can deliver 93% AFUE that oversized could cost more to run than a properly sized 80 for example.

    Doesn't sound like either dealer knows how to size a furnace. The Goodman 045 would be a good fit for your home. Output would be within 2,000 BTU of the existing one. That's about the smallest 90+ you can get!

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    no, I haven't added additional space except of the finished basement, but I guess it was calculated when builder installed 44,000BTU furnace. No leakier windows or removed insulation, however I believe in 20 years house's insulation was decreasing. As well as heating capabilities of 20 years old furnace.

    One of the reasons why installers recommended to go with more BTUs is because I complained that existing furnace is incapable to heat whole house properly either because its blower is not powerful enough to push the air to the second floor or it is just old and not efficient...

    BaldLoonie, I understand your note and have a question: how to properly size a new furnace? Doesn't it only depend on the house size and duct opening? Isn't it possible to install more powerful furnace than the original one and still use it efficiently?

    I hope my questions are not too stupid...

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2000
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN, USA
    Posts
    34,302
    Someone needs to do a careful heat loss calc. After that, they need to compare airflow needs of the furnace vs available ducting. Normally issues heating & cooling an area of the house can't be solved by throwing a bigger unit at it, it is a function of poor duct design or undersized ducts.

    Oversized equipment cycles more. Cycling is inefficient. Long run times of units sized right on the mark are efficient.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    Who can do heat loss calc? Is there an government organization responsible for that in Ontario or any local HVAC contractor is capable of doing that?

  8. #8
    Robo,

    Why do you need to bring the Class action up? There is no substance to this claim.

    The company that is filing this claim has filed numerous suits trying to drum up business.

    I think that this is a poor way to try and sell your product.

    T

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    18
    Any contractor can do a heat loss. The one quoting you should have done before recommending any size of furnace. I would be wary of a contractor that comes in a quotes based on square footage or same as the old system.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    16
    are there any measurements have to be done for the heat loss calculation?

    If this is strictly theoretic calculation based on the house size, ducts size, insulation then I could probably find all that data to make sure that the furnace is appropriately sized.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Dallas, TX
    Posts
    18
    Measurements of your walls, windows and other factors are needed for a proper heat loss/gain.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Kingsport, Tennessee
    Posts
    649

    Carrier/ Bryant/ Payne Furnace Lawsuit

    If I was in the market for a new furnace, I would want to know about any class action lawsuits against the manufacturer of a prospective furnace. Especially a lawsuit regarding the dependabilty of the heat exchanger!

  13. #13
    There is oly one thing wrong. It is not a class action lawsuit at this time. There are not enough people with issues.

    THe facts are that there is a failure rate of less than 1/2 of 1%.

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