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  1. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Give this some time to go through the weather cycles paticularly wind in varing degrees, calm to 20 mph with occupancy. Your location in the home, the meter location, and air mixing on the home are the issues.
    Usually, ventilation when +650 PPM CO2 is adequate to assure fresh air when occupied and low infiltration.
    keep us posted
    Teddy Bear.
    On a mild Saturday afternoon and with little wind and everyone home I had 1280PPM. It stayed above 1200 well into the evening.

  2. #41
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    Jun 2003
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    Madison, WI/Cape Coral, FL
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    Quote Originally Posted by garya505 View Post
    On a mild Saturday afternoon and with little wind and everyone home I had 1280PPM. It stayed above 1200 well into the evening.
    Here is a dilution table assuming 450 PPM CO2 outside air, good mixing of the inside air, CO2 from the occupants, and the fresh air infiltrating the space.

    550 ppm = 106 cfm of fresh air per occupant in space
    650 ppm = 53 cfm
    750 ppm = 35 cfm
    850 ppm = 26 cfm
    950 ppm = 21 cfm
    1050 ppm = 18 cfm
    1150 ppm = 15 cfm
    1250 ppm = 13 cfm

    If you have two occupants at 1200 ppm CO2 inside and 450 ppm outside and with good mixing, I would estimate 26 cfm of fresh air infiltration. With a 2,000 sqft. home/ 9 ft ceilings, you should have 60 cfm as minimal adequate infiltration. If we are going to use the CO2 levels as a signal to activate fresh air because of single occupancy and a lack of natural fresh air, activate fresh air at 650 PPm.

    Wait for the CO2 level to stabilize. With poor mixing, expect higher levels when the occupants are near the meter. Cold windy weather forces more fresh into the home. Calm moderate temps decrease the air change rate.
    The objective is to get an fresh air change of the air in the home in 4-5 hours to purge indoor pollutants. Exhaust or makeup air ventilation decreases natural air change at 50% rate. An example is a home getting 30 cfm of natural, activating a 50 cfm exhaust fan will increase the infiltration from 30 cfm to 58 cfm. The exhaust is 50 cfm and the exfiltration is reduced from 30 cfm to 8 fcm.
    Balanced flow ventilation, like an ERV, adds directly to the natural air change rate.
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  3. #42
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    TB, thanks for the table, that's good reference info.

    While we were out Sunday for about 4 hours, it dropped from about 1100 to 700. I was disappointed that it didn't drop to near outside levels, but then I realized that this is partially due to being so high when we left the house. If it was being kept down to 800 with ventilation, it may have dropped to something much closer to that of outside air, and the sensor could do it's ABC thing.

    So, I'm going to watch this longer, but at this point I would say that:
    1. We need ventilation in the house for healthy air.
    2. CO2-based DCV would work in this case.

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by garya505 View Post
    TB, thanks for the table, that's good reference info.

    While we were out Sunday for about 4 hours, it dropped from about 1100 to 700. I was disappointed that it didn't drop to near outside levels, but then I realized that this is partially due to being so high when we left the house. If it was being kept down to 800 with ventilation, it may have dropped to something much closer to that of outside air, and the sensor could do it's ABC thing.

    So, I'm going to watch this longer, but at this point I would say that:
    1. We need ventilation in the house for healthy air.
    2. CO2-based DCV would work in this case.
    Sorry, I forgot the number in your home and the size.
    Expect a 70% reduction in CO2 levels with one air change. 1100 to 700 is about a 60% reduction of CO2 levels. Did you leave the dog in the house? Big or small dog? You get the idea of how this works.
    By the way what were the winds outside during this time? Also did you place your meter outside for an hour?
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Sorry, I forgot the number in your home and the size.
    Expect a 70% reduction in CO2 levels with one air change. 1100 to 700 is about a 60% reduction of CO2 levels. Did you leave the dog in the house? Big or small dog? You get the idea of how this works.
    By the way what were the winds outside during this time? Also did you place your meter outside for an hour?
    Regards TB
    No dog, very light winds. The SupCo IAQ50 has ABC and manual calibration. Not knowing if indoor CO2 would get low enough for the ABC to work, I turned OFF the ABC and manually calibrated it outside. When manually calibrating, I think the IAQ50 assumes outside air is 400PPM. I suspect the ABC might work better than manual calibration, IF indoor CO2 ever got low enough.

    On a sensor like the Honeywell C7232A that only uses ABC, I suspect that even if the calibration wasn't "perfect" because you never dropped to 400 indoors, it would still work. For example, if the lowest period for the week was 500PPM, I would expect the C7232A to open the vent at 900 instead of 800. In other words, when it is set to switch at 800, I would think the sensor would switch at an offset of 400 relative to what it took as the outdoor baseline during ABC (500 + 400 = 900).

    BTW, last night only my wife and 2-year-old slept there, and it was 620PPM at 7AM. It was cold last night so the furnace ran a lot. It was not windy.

  6. #45
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    It's cold and windy today, CO2 at 640PPM. Yesterday we were out for a while but it only went down to 600. I don't think a sensor that requires ABC would work in this house. It would work fine in a business where it's empty for several hours every day.

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by garya505 View Post
    It's cold and windy today, CO2 at 640PPM. Yesterday we were out for a while but it only went down to 600. I don't think a sensor that requires ABC would work in this house. It would work fine in a business where it's empty for several hours every day.
    Keep in mind with active ventilation, the CO2 level with decrease faster.
    What ever the low is over the recalibration time will be assumed to be 450 ppm. The meter will adjust to 450 ppm while it is 600ppm. This results in a 150 ppm under read. Setting the control to activate at a lower level will compensate for the lack of no occupancy. Activating the ventilation to operate continuously for several hours once a month will replace lack of occupancy. Also occasionaly opening a window for an hour will also recalibrate the sensor. I have used the GE sensors which have the ABC set for accepting the lowest reading once per week as 450 PPM and have not needed to recalibrate. They are +-75 PPM. Will you be able to keep your meter in place for a time to experience calm moderater weather?
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by teddy bear View Post
    Keep in mind with active ventilation, the CO2 level with decrease faster.
    What ever the low is over the recalibration time will be assumed to be 450 ppm. The meter will adjust to 450 ppm while it is 600ppm. This results in a 150 ppm under read. Setting the control to activate at a lower level will compensate for the lack of no occupancy. Activating the ventilation to operate continuously for several hours once a month will replace lack of occupancy. Also occasionaly opening a window for an hour will also recalibrate the sensor. I have used the GE sensors which have the ABC set for accepting the lowest reading once per week as 450 PPM and have not needed to recalibrate. They are +-75 PPM. Will you be able to keep your meter in place for a time to experience calm moderater weather?
    Regards TB
    Thanks for the tips. I see what you mean about the automatic calibration. If I had a sensor that assumed a 400 calibration level, and was set to switch 800, and the inside CO2 only got down to 600, I would have a 200 PPM under-read. That would result in it opening at 1000 instead of 800, which would still work.

    Yes, I can watch the CO2 meter for a while to get more input.

  9. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by garya505 View Post
    Thanks for the tips. I see what you mean about the automatic calibration. If I had a sensor that assumed a 400 calibration level, and was set to switch 800, and the inside CO2 only got down to 600, I would have a 200 PPM under-read. That would result in it opening at 1000 instead of 800, which would still work.

    Yes, I can watch the CO2 meter for a while to get more input.
    Here is a graph on a large home in Naples FL. This home has 5 a/cs with whole ventilating dehumidifier using timer controlled fresh air ventilation. The doors are open to the outside occasionally. It is difficult to determine the fresh air venitlation levels without knowing the activities and number of occupants. But it is interesting. You will need fresh air ventilation during calm, moderate weather in most types of homes. Keep us posted on the CO2 levels during the coldest windest weather and the mildest calm weather.

    CO2 Naples FL RH Dew Point.pdf
    Regards TB
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  10. #49
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    Jun 2009
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    What about this concept?

    Interesting data. From what I've been seeing, our levels are considerable higher. We never leave the windows or doors open though.

    So, given a house that never gets down to 400PPM ...

    What about running a vent on a timer continuously, but at a lower rate, with CO2 switch in parallel, to open it at the threshold? In other words, let's say the house needs 60CFM (continuous) to bring the CO2 from a maximum of 1300PPM down to 700PPM, and the CO2 never drops below 600PPM even when the house is unoccupied for a few hours. OK, then if a vent timer opened the vent 20 minutes per hour, that's 20CFM which on it's own might only bring the CO2 down from it's max of 1300PPM to 1100PPM (not enough) when occupied, but would bring it down to 400PPM when unoccupied. Then the ABC on the CO2 sensor would work properly, and it would switch at the correct level. Of course, the timer would still open the vent when the CO2 sensor had reduced it to the threshold, but if this threshold was set to 1000PPM, then it would only go down to about 800PPM anyway.

    In essence, the low continuous rate provided by the timer makes the house "leakier" and lets the ABC on the CO2 sensor work like it should.

    Just a thought I had today.

    Of course, just opening the vent continuously for a few hours per month would do it too. I wonder which idea would be more reliable and cost effective.

  11. #50
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    I been reading some stuff on this and found that my idea is nothing new. They call this "non-zero minimum ventilation" or "base ventilation" which is usually used to account for non-occupant sources of CO2, to force the unoccupied CO2 levels down for the Automatic Baseline Calibration to work better. Seems to me the same concept would apply to a building that is not leaky enough to get down to ambient CO2 levels quickly enough.

  12. #51
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    Jun 2003
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    You can also judge the amount of air change that a occupied space has by the inside dew point verses the outside dew point. Keep in mind that the occupants are adding moisture to the air in the home. When the outside air is passing through the home home at an unknown rate. The inside dew point will be higher than the outside dew point depending on the amount of air passing through the home. An adult add about .5 lbs. of moisture per hour when in the home. 100 cfm of air passing through a home with a l lb. per hour of humidification from any source will have an increase of approx. 13^F dew point. You are adding more moisture more moisture.
    I am attaching data from a 3,800 sqft. WI foamed home that has the ventilation off for most of the time data was collected. The natural infiltration is inadequate for purging indoor pollutants with current weather conditions. Based on the outside/inside dew points, I would estimate that the home is getting 30-40 cfm of fresh air infiltration. That is why the indoor dew point is much higher than the outside dew points. This home needs 100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants.
    Ideally, the inside dew point would be 10-15^F above outside based on the size of the home and the number of occupants.
    I am doing a follow-up on the home with the ventilation settings corrected to get better fresh air ventilation when occupied.
    Hope you find this constructive. Not many want this much information. Will post the new data next week.
    Regards TB

    Nov WI dew point inside outside-789833-55-114033.pdf
    Bear Rules: Keep our home <50% RH summer, controls mites/mold and very comfortable.
    Provide 60-100 cfm of fresh air when occupied to purge indoor pollutants and keep window dry during cold weather. T-stat setup/setback +8 hrs. saves energy
    Use +Merv 10 air filter. -Don't forget the "Golden Rule"

  13. #52
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    Albuquerque NM
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    Thanks for the info on inside dew point. I hadn't thought about that.

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