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  1. #27
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,702
    If the equipment isn't running all the time, what do these old people do when the equipment shuts off?

    Why do they need to "warm" themselves in front of a register?

    I think if you step back you'll find the problem is they are keeping the enclosure too close to their discomfort line. Bump the thermostat a couple degrees.

    You may want to do this inside the programming so they can "keep the thermostat below 70 and be good Americans" like Jimmy Carter suggested.

    I did this for some really nice folks in a 1700 sf mobile home. They're now in their 80's, and 69 is simply too cold.

    And the work they did cut their annual gas use from 1050 therms to 625, with no increase in electric. I'd say they're good Americans, and if the house is 72 that doesn't change a thing.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  2. #28
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,139
    If the equipment isn't running all the time, what do these old people do when the equipment shuts off?

    their homes are well sealed & insulated & the house holds the tem the furnace provides as per tstat settings.

    Why do they need to "warm" themselves in front of a register?

    who? my comment is ng heat is much warmer than heat pump heat. not that anyone is standing in front of a register.


    I think if you step back you'll find the problem is they are keeping the enclosure too close to their discomfort line. Bump the thermostat a couple degrees.

    Ted..some people perfer warmer than others, it isn't a problem..just their nature.

    You may want to do this inside the programming so they can "keep the thermostat below 70 and be good Americans" like Jimmy Carter suggested.

    please.

    I did this for some really nice folks in a 1700 sf mobile home. They're now in their 80's, and 69 is simply too cold.
    good deal.

    And the work they did cut their annual gas use from 1050 therms to 625, with no increase in electric. I'd say they're good Americans, and if the house is 72 that doesn't change a thing.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  3. #29
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Rochester NY
    Posts
    4,702
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    but you also have to think of the customer's comfort.
    if a homeowner is used to the higher temp of heat from gas furnace..
    heat pump heat is much cooler.
    I've found this to be a deciding factor in homes for older people and folks
    who don't like cold.
    ERLA, as furnaces get more efficient, get ready for much colder leaving air temps.

    And high end pumps will allow some control of LAT at the sacrifice of efficiency.

    But installing inefficient equipment and excusing it as "people want hot supply air" works only so long as inefficient equipment and cheap energy is available. I hope both are going away.

    The cheap and easy arms length "not my energy bill" solutions of the past need to be replaced by digging a little deeper into the problem rather than taking answers at face value.

    The ultimate comfort can be provided by heat pumps. I promise you it can, and actually result in happier clients. People hate setback because it makes them uncomfortable. They want HOT heat because all their surfaces are freezing, and making them freezing. Heat pumps are an "excuse" to abandon setback.

    Yes it may make the sales process longer and harder. It may mean taking a little more time educating the customer, who invariably has some inaccurate assumptions that are challenging to educate to.

    I suspect you feel my "gaming" the reading on the thermostat to make my clients feel good about themselves while at the same time being comfortable is dishonest. I really need people to be comfortable, or they do strange things (like constantly adjusting the thermostat). When they do strange things my savings results go down.

    A year later these people realize they can put the thermostat where-ever they like. We cut their total gas consumption 40%.
    Which makes more sense to you?
    CONSERVATION - turning your thermostat back and being uncomfortable. Maybe saving 5-10%
    ENERGY EFFICIENCY - leaving your thermostat where everyone is comfortable. Saving 30-70%

    DO THE NUMBERS! Step on a HOMESCALE.
    What is comfort? Well, it AIN'T just TEMPERATURE!

    Energy Obese? An audit is the next step - go to BPI.org, or RESNET, and find an auditor near you.

  4. #30
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,139
    Ted.stop.

    the OP's questions are for gas furnaces. read the thread.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  5. #31
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by George2 View Post
    Thermaljohn hit it on the head again. The 14"x25" filter grille is half the air your system needs. Now we are getting to the main problem.

    I would advice ditching the filter grille and enlarging the RA somehow (enlarge and/or add to).
    Then install a hi-eff. box filter (rack) under.
    Thanks guys...we are going to add another 14x25 return filter next to the furnace so there will be two return filters. Will another return grill help reduce reduce noise from the duct or the blower?

  6. #32
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Over Here
    Posts
    1,105
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike530 View Post
    Thanks guys...we are going to add another 14x25 return filter next to the furnace so there will be two return filters. Will another return grill help reduce reduce noise from the duct or the blower?
    Noise... there are three sources of noise in your case: burner, velocity, and blower.

    The burner noise would be an 'echoey' roar associated with in-shot burner operation. We've beaten that horse to death on that one.

    Velocity is the noise of air associated with a high rate of speed. It also causes louvred return grilles to hum similar to a reed in a woodwind instrument. Double up on your return like discussed and that will be eliminated.

    Blower noise is inherent with gas furnaces when they are installed in a closet similar as yours. Since the blower assembly is at the bottom of the unit, and return grilles are below it, the blower is heard. Variable speed blowers are typically quieter as they can be reduced in speed within a broader range when compared to standard three speed blowers like you most likely have now. A few tricks can be done to reduce return cavity blower noise to acceptable levels like lining it with duct board similar with energy rater's earlier post.

    Now which noise were you refering to?

  7. #33
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,608
    I would look at trane or carrier . if you want quiet go with a 95 percent efficiency ,forget pay back you want comfort part of comfort is noise level .if you want a 80 percent you need to put a solid door on the closet with no louvers and will need a combustion air pipes from the attic also if you go with a honeywell or April air 5 inch media filter it will solve the filter size
    We really need change now

  8. #34
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,139
    doen't hvac equipment have sones levels?
    seems like I've seen that info on both equipment websites
    and ari site.

    seems like I've seen Lennox had low sones levels.

    best of luck
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  9. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    The Quad-Cities area (midwest).
    Posts
    2,603
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike530 View Post
    Thanks guys...we are going to add another 14x25 return filter next to the furnace so there will be two return filters. Will another return grill help reduce reduce noise from the duct or the blower?
    Yes, proper sized openings will help greatly to reduce air noise. It will also help to improve the efficiency.

    But instead of filter grilles, I would put a SpaceGard (or such) under the furnace for the filtration of the system. This will help to further reduce the air noise problem.
    Last edited by George2; 11-20-2012 at 06:37 PM. Reason: Spell check

  10. #36
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by catmanacman View Post
    I would look at trane or carrier . if you want quiet go with a 95 percent efficiency ,forget pay back you want comfort part of comfort is noise level .if you want a 80 percent you need to put a solid door on the closet with no louvers and will need a combustion air pipes from the attic also if you go with a honeywell or April air 5 inch media filter it will solve the filter size
    Well the closet door does not have any louvers on it. Could I just put a piece of duct board on the inside of the door....or is that completely wrong?

  11. #37
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    doen't hvac equipment have sones levels?
    seems like I've seen that info on both equipment websites
    and ari site.

    seems like I've seen Lennox had low sones levels.

    best of luck
    Some of the manufactures do...but it seems like it is mostly for the air conditioners and not the furnaces.

  12. #38
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    14
    Quote Originally Posted by thermojohn View Post
    Noise... there are three sources of noise in your case: burner, velocity, and blower.

    The burner noise would be an 'echoey' roar associated with in-shot burner operation. We've beaten that horse to death on that one.

    Velocity is the noise of air associated with a high rate of speed. It also causes louvred return grilles to hum similar to a reed in a woodwind instrument. Double up on your return like discussed and that will be eliminated.

    Blower noise is inherent with gas furnaces when they are installed in a closet similar as yours. Since the blower assembly is at the bottom of the unit, and return grilles are below it, the blower is heard. Variable speed blowers are typically quieter as they can be reduced in speed within a broader range when compared to standard three speed blowers like you most likely have now. A few tricks can be done to reduce return cavity blower noise to acceptable levels like lining it with duct board similar with energy rater's earlier post.

    Now which noise were you refering to?
    Thanks thermojohn. That explains the noise issue pretty well.
    In regards to lining the return cavity to reduce sound....can you also build a metal can or box? That is what my contractor wants to do, but I preferred they line it with duct board for noise reduction purposes.

  13. #39
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    4,608
    while doing the load calc what size ac do you need there are plenty of 45000 btu furnaces for 2 ton
    We really need change now

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