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  1. #40
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    Feb 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    Not at all. Everyone involved has to shoulder some blame here. You choose to defend the unions, you must also accept the outcome of their actions.
    Understand that workers don't want to strike. They have responsibilities that don't get done on strike. In this case it's possible the owners wanted to take the money and run. In my experience the workers don't contribute much to a business failing. They don't make the decisions that create failure. Look at yourself. If you work for someone, how much could you contribute to the company failure. If you own a business you'd understand, outside of a few things out of your control, success or failure is almost entirely on you. If there is a worker causing a problem, they are down the road. If a bad CEO, good luck.
    The fact the judge ordered both sides to resume negotiations tells me managment was eather bluffing or they had a chance to split with the bucks. I think their business model sucked and was probably not sustainable. The Union had nothing to gain by the business failing.
    Tracers work both ways.

  2. #41
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    Mar 2008
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    NC
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Are you referring to what is happening here? http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread....1#post14628191

    I was.

  3. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    21,118
    Couple of news tidbits I read:
    Teamsters (larger of 2 unions involved) privately voted to work... Bakers (smaller of 2 unions) voice vote to strike.
    There were a host of business abuses; like Wonder bread and Twinkies could not be delivered on the same truck (union rule, not management rule).
    Lots of duplication in distribution that could have been streamlined (and save a HUGE amount of $$$)... nothing doing says the union... no jobs to be cut.

    IMO the Judge sees the larger picture that everyone looses if Hostess goes under... so he is trying to encourage a resolution.
    Now if either side gets stubborn... well TPTB tried... but were not successful.

    Personally, this is what I see happening: Hostess is no longer profitable (fact). Biggest cost issue is labor (fact). No way to lower labor costs as long as the unions are behaving like spoiled children (fact). SOOO
    Either they negotiate something that will work... or Hostess shuts down and is re-opened under a different name with non-union labor at a substantially lower wage.

    Now here is the question: Would the bakers be better off with an 8% pay cut, or would they be better off with NO job?

    And BTW: Where is that union loving POTUS? So far, I do not see him stepping in on the side of organized labor... wonder if he cares now that he is re-elected... we will see...
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  4. #43
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    Nov 2000
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    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    I'm Union and I'm not considered any of those things. They have represented me well both as a member and as a signatory contractor. I have a good pension and made good money. My family has had a free full coverage health and welfare insurance, unemployment insurance, on-going training. There's a lot of reasons to be Union.
    Maybe it's NY. I think we've had this conversion before.
    Go tell Hostess employees how great it is to have a union.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  5. #44
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    Feb 2004
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Go tell Hostess employees how great it is to have a union.
    Once again, predictably Robo chooses the management. This was not managements first rodeo in court. They've been there before. Probably now trying on the golden parachute for a perfect fit.
    You've never been a union member. Never been in negotiations. Never been in a situation that necessitated a need to strike.
    So let me ask you something pilgrim. What do you really know? (and TV is the wrong answer)
    Tracers work both ways.

  6. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Helena, Montana
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    2,155
    Never needed anyone to get me a job or protect the job I have. Always been able to stand on my own to feet. And yes, accept responsibility for my actions.
    Don't worry zombies are looking for brains, you're safe...

  7. #46
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    Feb 2004
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    New Mexico
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    Quote Originally Posted by ControlsInMT View Post
    Never needed anyone to get me a job or protect the job I have. Always been able to stand on my own to feet. And yes, accept responsibility for my actions.
    Congrats, your the exception. Many people don't have the skills to negotiate on their own behalf.
    I know living in the west, ( I only include Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico West Texas, and parts of Idaho, SD ND. W Nebr, OK Panhandle, a bit of Kansas. The mindset is different from most of the country. A lot more independent. In other places I've lived where industry thrives workers have struggled for wages, safety, conditions and lots more. Unions have not gotten the credit they deserve. Usually from non-union workers themselves.
    There are places where you would appreciate having a Union. They don't take your away your ability to stand. They staand together. BTW, I only know about trade unions.
    Tracers work both ways.

  8. #47
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    Nov 2000
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    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Once again, predictably Robo chooses the management. This was not managements first rodeo in court. They've been there before. Probably now trying on the golden parachute for a perfect fit.
    You've never been a union member. Never been in negotiations. Never been in a situation that necessitated a need to strike.
    So let me ask you something pilgrim. What do you really know? (and TV is the wrong answer)
    I'm not saying there was not a problem with management. However, management actually does something for a company and therefore will make good and bad decisions which will either benefit a company or not. When management does not have control over the most important factor of a company, it's labor force, management decisions are no longer in the control of management.

    Having a labor force that is not completely and utterly subjected to the company is always going to be counter productive. When management finds ways to make better profits, labor unions find more ways to take those profits away.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  9. #48
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    Eastern PA
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Congrats, your the exception. Many people don't have the skills to negotiate on their own behalf.
    I know living in the west, ( I only include Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico West Texas, and parts of Idaho, SD ND. W Nebr, OK Panhandle, a bit of Kansas. The mindset is different from most of the country. A lot more independent. In other places I've lived where industry thrives workers have struggled for wages, safety, conditions and lots more. Unions have not gotten the credit they deserve. Usually from non-union workers themselves.
    There are places where you would appreciate having a Union. They don't take your away your ability to stand. They staand together. BTW, I only know about trade unions.
    What are you babbling about? There are a lot more American workers who don't rely on some socialist organization to protect them from the big bad world of working than there are those who do. And most of those who have to rely on a socialist organization to protect them have jobs with government because they too are Socialists.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  10. #49
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    Sep 2005
    Location
    Atlanta GA area
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    Quote Originally Posted by hvacker View Post
    Congrats, your the exception. Many people don't have the skills to negotiate on their own behalf.
    I know living in the west, ( I only include Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, New Mexico West Texas, and parts of Idaho, SD ND. W Nebr, OK Panhandle, a bit of Kansas. The mindset is different from most of the country. A lot more independent. In other places I've lived where industry thrives workers have struggled for wages, safety, conditions and lots more. Unions have not gotten the credit they deserve. Usually from non-union workers themselves.
    There are places where you would appreciate having a Union. They don't take your away your ability to stand. They staand together. BTW, I only know about trade unions.
    Before I make a comment, let me say I am NOT poking at any group...

    IMO it is not that hey do not have the skills... it is they do not want to learn the skills. There is a HUGE difference.

    And BTW: can you turn off BOLD... it does not help your posts any.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  11. #50
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    Sep 2002
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    4,970
    Have been both union and non union. I have respect for the workers themselves if they deserve it. As far as unions.......... Can't really say I think all that much of them with my experiance from them ...... you can throw ethics out the door with them. Not gonna argue with someone that is blind to the way unions operate being ........ THEY ARE BLIND TO THE WAY UNIONS OPERATE. I don't know how all unions are I just know what ones I have worked with are .......... Pretty scummy and that is also in part to how some of the head strong union workers act.

    Things are going to get a lot worse so your gonna see a lot more under funded union pensions looking for an OBAMA bail out ........
    I don't worry about them tho being what goes around comes around and their digging their own grave.

  12. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by dec View Post
    Have been both union and non union. I have respect for the workers themselves if they deserve it. As far as unions.......... Can't really say I think all that much of them with my experiance from them ...... you can throw ethics out the door with them. Not gonna argue with someone that is blind to the way unions operate being ........ THEY ARE BLIND TO THE WAY UNIONS OPERATE. I don't know how all unions are I just know what ones I have worked with are .......... Pretty scummy and that is also in part to how some of the head strong union workers act.

    Things are going to get a lot worse so your gonna see a lot more under funded union pensions looking for an OBAMA bail out ........
    I don't worry about them tho being what goes around comes around and their digging their own grave.
    And you nailed it, as for unfunded pensions at the former twinkie factory the figure stood at 2 Billion dollars. It left management no room to expand.
    Three hundred and seventy different contracts. Make a product that consumers will buy,if not you die.

    This is the same reason to a "T" that GM dumped their DB to DC due to liabilities that was a huge drag on any expansion for the future.
    FEN

  13. #52
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    May 2000
    Location
    Rochester, NY, USA
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    Quote Originally Posted by dec View Post
    Have been both union and non union. I have respect for the workers themselves if they deserve it. As far as unions.......... Can't really say I think all that much of them with my experiance from them ...... you can throw ethics out the door with them. Not gonna argue with someone that is blind to the way unions operate being ........ THEY ARE BLIND TO THE WAY UNIONS OPERATE. I don't know how all unions are I just know what ones I have worked with are .......... Pretty scummy and that is also in part to how some of the head strong union workers act.

    Things are going to get a lot worse so your gonna see a lot more under funded union pensions looking for an OBAMA bail out ........
    I don't worry about them tho being what goes around comes around and their digging their own grave.
    that pretty much hits the nail on the head
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