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  1. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by chillerout1 View Post
    well I heard that the union members said they could make more on unemployment than with the proposed pay cuts . guess their gonna find out. here's another company the union killed dont know how many remeber eastern airlines

    This statement IMHO is both uninformed and subject to ridicule.

    The unions "killed" the jobs? really...Apparently you didn't read the story either..


    "Our members decided... they were not going to agree to another round of outrageous wage and benefit cuts and give up their pension only to see yet another management team fail and Wall Street vulture capitalists and 'restructuring specialists' walk away with untold millions of dollars," said BCTGM International Union President Frank Hurt.

    Picketing workers echoed the sentiment.

    "The people who are running this company are not interested in making bread," said Roger Harrison, 56, who bags buns at the Hostess plant in Lenexa, Kansas, and has been with the company for 35 years.

    "They are not in the baking industry; they are just interested in the money," said Harrison.

    The company had started implementing an 8 percent pay cut, a 20 percent increase in healthcare costs, and changes to pension and workday provisions when workers went on strike on November 9. Hostess had given employees a deadline to return to work on Thursday, but the union held firm, saying it had already given far more in concessions than workers could bear and that it would not bend further.


    Only the human resources person stated the union killed the company... Something tells me they were paid to even say that...

    So lets just say they were non union....Just to be fair and impartial, so would you just lay down and take a tenth pay cut and reduction of benefits? Thinking not.

    You would not have a pension because you would not have the monies to do so... Tell me all knowing, what would you do?

    To say that unions killed a certain company is complete and total BS. The salaries are negotiated, as are the benefits. If they were not union, the job would not even be worth having and it would all be migrant labor... Hate it when someone criticizes without backing it up with a solution. Just banter.

    Without the union the turnover of bad employees would have killed Hostess..... Just my opinion and I have the right to have it.

    How many good paying non unionized jobs in the manufacturing field do you think there are?

    Everybody wants it cheaper, but have not yet figured out how it got that way... Learn some history.
    Last edited by GT Jets; 11-16-2012 at 10:32 PM.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  2. #28
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    Even in good economic times, you can't successfully run a business in which management doesn't have control over labor. Simple good business practice. The union employees had a choice, and they chose to be unemployed. The corporate leaders will start up other businesses and put people to work who do not choose to close down the companies that employ them.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  3. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoBoTeq View Post
    Even in good economic times, you can't successfully run a business in which management doesn't have control over labor. Simple good business practice. The union employees had a choice, and they chose to be unemployed. The corporate leaders will start up other businesses and put people to work who do not choose to close down the companies that employ them.
    At what point would you say the table turns? I guess what I am trying to say is, these CEO's, CFO's, parent companies all seem to never be held responsible for their misguided actions, so at what point is it said that "boy, those 7 digit a year executives sure screwed the pooch on that one"?

    I guess my feelings are to lead, follow or fold. Why live in America if you have to do it like a peasant? I simply don't understand where some of you guys come from sometimes.

    So what I'm saying is, how is it that YOU want to make a decent living wage, but THEY can't? Your hypocrites.

    Businesses don't fail because of labor in most cases. They fail because these so called executives fail to adjust in the proper manner to keep control over the ever changing business environment. Look at Hostess as you as the consumer, I can honestly say that I have not purchased ANY of their product for well over a decade. Not sure I can come up with five people I know who have. That being said, they just have not made anything that appeals to me or my family. I also don't think I am alone.

    There are a few ways to get more profitable for your stockholders, beat up on the labor pool that got you where you are, sell off chunks of your company for a profit and dump the money onto the profitability side of things, not to mention cut back on maintenance and short pay your vendors... Notice I didn't say reduce CEO pay? That would be unheard of....

    Corporate greed at it's best.
    If a day goes by and you have learned nothing, I hope you got a lot of sleep.

  4. #30
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    Something stinks about the whole thing. Hostess brands are too big to just go away. Someone else will buy the brand and bake them in a different place. One of those articles said one of the top management was getting $125,000 a month in salary. It kind of reminds me of those HVAC owners who won't give you a raise or maintain the company equipment, but don't hesitate to talk about their Las Vegas vacation, Hunting trip, or Brand new RV or other toys they just bought.

  5. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GT Jets View Post
    At what point would you say the table turns? I guess what I am trying to say is, these CEO's, CFO's, parent companies all seem to never be held responsible for their misguided actions, so at what point is it said that "boy, those 7 digit a year executives sure screwed the pooch on that one"?
    And if left alone, without any government interventions whatsoever, capitalism would feret out corporate "greed" that creates bad business. What you call "greed" is what others call goals. Are we not living in a country where we can make our goals whatever we wish to make them and then work as hard as we can to achieve those goals?

    If what you are calling corporate greed is the cause of the downfall of companies, then let capitalism work and let companies fail due to this sort of mismanagement. It won't be long after corporate execs wipe out corporations that corporate execs will no longer have the ablities to do so.

    I guess my feelings are to lead, follow or fold. Why live in America if you have to do it like a peasant? I simply don't understand where some of you guys come from sometimes.
    If all labor is controlled by labor unions, we will all be equally as poor. The only reason organized labor is able to bribe union members with higher compensations is that there are still enough other American workers who are paying for the differences in taxes for all of the money that is used by government use of union labor. Show us one country with a majority of organized labor that has not become Socialist and where that countries workers are not equally impovershed.

    It is a simple matter of economics; there is only so much money available. It is a matter of how that money is distributed. A good corporate administrator who can run a company efficiently enough to provide reasonable and rational pay compensations for the workers, a reasonable return on investment for stockholders and continue to grow the company is worth just about what ever they demand in compensation.

    So what I'm saying is, how is it that YOU want to make a decent living wage, but THEY can't? Your hypocrites.
    Who are you referring to as YOU and THEY? If YOU is me, I work very hard to make the company I work FOR succeed overall so that I can remain in my position because the company is doing well. If THEY are union workers, just how much compensation does a Twinkie filler really warrant? It is not a matter of the 87% of working Americans who are not unionized are under compensated, it is a matter of the 13% of union members, 9% of whom are directly working for government and 95% of those who are working for private companies are working on projects using government money (OUR TAXES), being over compensated in order to continue supporting the Socialist unions.

    Businesses don't fail because of labor in most cases. They fail because these so called executives fail to adjust in the proper manner to keep control over the ever changing business environment. Look at Hostess as you as the consumer, I can honestly say that I have not purchased ANY of their product for well over a decade. Not sure I can come up with five people I know who have. That being said, they just have not made anything that appeals to me or my family. I also don't think I am alone.
    All union hype. If we look at how many entire industries in the U.S. that have failed over the past century, we will see one constant; they all had heavy organized labor influence. The only reason the steel and railroad industries in the U.S. have not gone under is because they are so heavily subsidized by government (OUR MONEY IN TAXES) under the guise of being critical for national security. Just more of the same political and organized crim....labor working together to steal from the American workers.
    There are a few ways to get more profitable for your stockholders, beat up on the labor pool that got you where you are, sell off chunks of your company for a profit and dump the money onto the profitability side of things, not to mention cut back on maintenance and short pay your vendors... Notice I didn't say reduce CEO pay? That would be unheard of....

    Corporate greed at it's best.
    Business's need to be able to manage labor or they can not succeed. Once a business's labor force is dictated by other than management, the workers no longer work for that business, but rather for the organized labor union. When the workforce is not working for the betterment of the company, that company cannot succeed in the long run.

    Check into why Perdue chickens and Walmart are still such a successful companies. For our own industry, look at why Lyon, Conklin Company got rid of union labor when purchased by Fergusson under the Wolseley company. Organized labor is a parasite feeding off of business. When we get rid of the parasite, we can work on being better all around.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  6. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by tuba View Post
    Something stinks about the whole thing. Hostess brands are too big to just go away. Someone else will buy the brand and bake them in a different place. One of those articles said one of the top management was getting $125,000 a month in salary. It kind of reminds me of those HVAC owners who won't give you a raise or maintain the company equipment, but don't hesitate to talk about their Las Vegas vacation, Hunting trip, or Brand new RV or other toys they just bought.
    If a person is able to keep a business going, providing jobs for employees without having to pay for the vast costs of organized labor, how much is that person worth? A million a year? Two million? Why is there even a limit amount that any American can make as long as they are building a business and keeping other Americans in work?

    Organized labor destroys jobs by creating circumstances in which less Americans can be employed. If you have $1,000 available for labor and you pay $100 for each worker, you can employ 10 workers. If you pay any more than $100, you have to do with less workers. When organized labor is in control, less Americans are able to work.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  7. #33
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    Let's role play.

    I'll be the CEO and you be the employee. All you have to do is sit at the table with me. For the next year I will slide over to you $17 and bonus to be put into a pension every hour 8hrs. a day, 5days a week for 52 weeks.
    At the end of the first year I say that from now on I will slide over to you $15.50/hr every hour for 8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks. But I'm also going to reduce the bonus to your pension by 50%.
    You can take the new deal or walk away.
    Instead you not only refuse to take the new deal or walk away, you the decide to take the company hostage. Refusing to let me make any money or sell any product.
    You tell me I have to keep giving you $17/hr and full pension benefits before you'll let me make or sell any product. I now am not making any profit to pay you cause I have no product to ship.

    So I close the company down. You are fired and are now making $0/hr.

    But instead you go and tell all your buddies that I was unfair to want to pay less for the same job, which was just to sit at a table and get paid.
    You tell everyone I was greedy. That I had a million dollars in my pocket. And how dare I give you less, when you knew for a fact I had money in my pocket.

    What does it matter to you what I have?

    I'm paying you. Why is it any of your concern. You don't run or own my company.

  8. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaard View Post
    Let's role play.

    I'll be the CEO and you be the employee. All you have to do is sit at the table with me. For the next year I will slide over to you $17 and bonus to be put into a pension every hour 8hrs. a day, 5days a week for 52 weeks.
    At the end of the first year I say that from now on I will slide over to you $15.50/hr every hour for 8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks. But I'm also going to reduce the bonus to your pension by 50%.
    You can take the new deal or walk away.
    Instead you not only refuse to take the new deal or walk away, you the decide to take the company hostage. Refusing to let me make any money or sell any product.
    You tell me I have to keep giving you $17/hr and full pension benefits before you'll let me make or sell any product. I now am not making any profit to pay you cause I have no product to ship.

    So I close the company down. You are fired and are now making $0/hr.

    But instead you go and tell all your buddies that I was unfair to want to pay less for the same job, which was just to sit at a table and get paid.
    You tell everyone I was greedy. That I had a million dollars in my pocket. And how dare I give you less, when you knew for a fact I had money in my pocket.

    What does it matter to you what I have?

    I'm paying you. Why is it any of your concern. You don't run or own my company.
    That is the exact point I made to some guys at work. You would still be working but now you're not??

  9. #35
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    Matthew 20:1-16 New International Version (NIV)

    The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

    “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius [a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

    3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

    “He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

    7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

    “He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

    8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

    9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

    13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?

  10. #36
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    Obama will take it over, then hand it over to the union members. Just like GM.

  11. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaard View Post
    Let's role play.

    I'll be the CEO and you be the employee. All you have to do is sit at the table with me. For the next year I will slide over to you $17 and bonus to be put into a pension every hour 8hrs. a day, 5days a week for 52 weeks.
    At the end of the first year I say that from now on I will slide over to you $15.50/hr every hour for 8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 52 weeks. But I'm also going to reduce the bonus to your pension by 50%.
    You can take the new deal or walk away.
    Instead you not only refuse to take the new deal or walk away, you the decide to take the company hostage. Refusing to let me make any money or sell any product.
    You tell me I have to keep giving you $17/hr and full pension benefits before you'll let me make or sell any product. I now am not making any profit to pay you cause I have no product to ship.

    So I close the company down. You are fired and are now making $0/hr.

    But instead you go and tell all your buddies that I was unfair to want to pay less for the same job, which was just to sit at a table and get paid.
    You tell everyone I was greedy. That I had a million dollars in my pocket. And how dare I give you less, when you knew for a fact I had money in my pocket.

    What does it matter to you what I have?

    I'm paying you. Why is it any of your concern. You don't run or own my company.
    This is a good analogy that coincides with what Jesus teaches in His parable of the workers in the vineyard.
    Then again, Socialism requires that we replace theology with government ideology...the big "G" of government replacing the big "G" of God.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  12. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chaard View Post
    Matthew 20:1-16 New International Version (NIV)

    The Parable of the Workers in the Vineyard

    “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius [a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

    3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

    “He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

    7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

    “He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

    8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

    9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

    13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?
    LOL! I responded to your previous post before reading this one. Great minds...eh?
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


  13. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by flanders View Post
    Obama will take it over, then hand it over to the union members. Just like GM.
    First, O'Bummer will need to execute another executive order to be able to prevent the company from doing what the company owners want to do. For those who are not aware of what O'Bummer is doing, it is called nationalizing under a fascist government.
    Government is a disease...
    ...masquerading as its own cure…
    Ecclesiastes 10:2 NIV


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