Hope none of you have IRA's or 401K's... cause BHO wants to nationalize them...

[ga-hvac-tech]

Good heavens! And you think we are better off right now!

Just wait until their hero rips them off... which is inevitable. Then we will see what is so wonderful...

[energy star]

Obama won. He IS the president. Move on. You lost it.

[acmanko]

It takes Congress to ursup money from the public. Those GOP polecats will just pass it down to the States,counties and cities so their sheeple will think their fees and taxes went up due to local control

[corny]

It takes Congress to ursup money from the public. Those GOP polecats will just pass it down to the States,counties and cities so their sheeple will think their fees and taxes went up due to local control

Thats exactly what Romney did in Mass.....

[DeltaT]

It takes Congress to ursup money from the public. Those GOP polecats will just pass it down to the States,counties and cities so their sheeple will think their fees and taxes went up due to local control

That's already been happening here for a number of years. We are totally controlled and at the mercy of the democrats not to say the replublicans would not have done some of the same.

All I know is since the election a ton of more folks have been laid off in all segments except the computer/software industry. Blame it on who you want that fits your needs but it's not funny to those that have no future here and around this country.

[acmanko]

That's BS. I remember well Nixon going to China and the big wigs at USSteel talking about how they were going to bust the union in B'ham. Once they got an okay to build a mill in China. That was in the 70's and the layoffs were massive before the 80's rolled around

[54885488]

That's already been happening here for a number of years. We are totally controlled and at the mercy of the democrats not to say the replublicans would not have done some of the same.

All I know is since the election a ton of more folks have been laid off in all segments except the computer/software industry. Blame it on who you want that fits your needs but it's not funny to those that have no future here and around this country.

I havent seen the lastest employment figures on employment . Do you have a link to them ? Thanks in advance

[ga-hvac-tech]

That's BS. I remember well Nixon going to China and the big wigs at USSteel talking about how they were going to bust the union in B'ham. Once they got an okay to build a mill in China. That was in the 70's and the layoffs were massive before the 80's rolled around

I can see that from a viewpoint that only includes how much I get for how little work... this does not look 'fair'... whatever fair is... personally I think fair is a fairy tale. Anyhow:

IMO one needs to look at the bigger picture: Growth is something that HAS to happen, or by default the books no longer balance. Just the way it works, no way to get around it. So when a market shrinks... the business supplying that market has to make arrangements to remain profitable or they will go bankrupt (like Hostess did last week).

In the 1970's, wages for factory workers had gotten too high... then demand shrank (which is part of that thing called the business cycle). Well during this downturn the bosses had to figure out something to keep profitability. After reviewing the books, they found labor was the largest cost... and they really did not have much else they could cut. SOOO labor costs had to go down. One way to do that would be to fake a bankruptcy and break the contract with labor... BUT one still had federal regs to deal with. So the idea came along to move manufacturing overseas. It seems like a win-win deal; labor costs go down and govt reg compliance costs go down... and as long as shipping costs were less... well it became more profitable to make steel in Mexico or China and ship it back to the USA.

Now why did this happen? Because it costs too much to make the steel in the USA. Now tell me Ace: Is there a reason why steelworkers should make $50/hr with full paid benefits? When HVAC techs get $20/hr and part benefits? Not really.. unless they strike and management gives in. Problem is... sooner or later the steel mill will no longer be profitable and either it closes or goes overseas.

So the bottom line is: One can get big $$$ now, and loose their big $$$ job later... OR... one can get average $$$ now AND later. Which one do you think is better?

[54885488]

Unions do have a tendency to price them selves and there workers out of jobs. A union has to be pushing for more and more for there members but like ga-hvac-tec says its better to have a lower waged job than no job . I my self have seen this first hand being that im am a hvac tec for a school district in ca.

[ga-hvac-tech]

Please do not hear me being anti-union... that is not the case. If others want to go that route, that is fine. I tend to see the larger picture (the way I think), and it just does not seem like the stereotypical union mentality is good for long term stability of income. Having said that I have seen bosses who screw their employees... so there are issues on both sides of that fence.

Myself, I worked in a union shop for a little less than a year... was just not my cup of tea. Now it was grave-yard shift, and the other folks there were a closed set of friends... that could have had something to do with it. The end result was I became self-employed, which was the better thing for me.

Each of us finds our nitch, and I am all for each person having the freedom to do just that.

[acmanko]

So what you ate saying is a small business should charge less across the board than what larger companies charge