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  1. #196
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  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Political influence is equal to power (including political, economic, military, etc).

    Politics is like a drain in the sink or tub... there is ALWAYS water spiraling down. The question is who pours the new water in. Whomever adds more water gets to control what goes on... anyone that chooses to not add water ends up being used by the situations.

    Now lets translate that into politics: If the USA has influence... then interests of the USA get preferred treatment... If the USA does not have influence... then interests of other countries get preferred treatment at the expense of the USA. There is NO middle ground... each country that wants power in the region has to pour in influence or be relegated to the sidelines... and it is an endless mess.

    Why bother? Ever try to get in to bid on a BIG job? One has to have connections... right. Influence is not much different.

    The world is no longer a place where folks can just sit on the sidelines, or become isolated. The USA is really the only super-power left... we would be FOOLS to let that go just because we are too lazy to keep up our influence.

    Now back to the question: So far, all I have read is negative answers. Please give me a positive answer as to who one should align with and why. How about Egypt? How about Iran? How about the Saudi's? Oh, lets make it Ligya... or maybe Syria... Go ahead, pick one and tell me why aligning with that country would be the BEST thing the USA could do to keep US interests in the best position in the area.
    What if we just took more of a neutral stance. Sold them smart phones etc, bought their oil etc. If we kept some distance from their political problems, I think that would go along way to getting the target off our heads. I'm not saying to not be involved at all, I'm saying to take several steps away. The biggest thing that our "infuence" has gotten us in the last ten years that I see is 9/11 and endless war debt.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    What if we just took more of a neutral stance. Sold them smart phones etc, bought their oil etc. If we kept some distance from their political problems, I think that would go along way to getting the target off our heads. I'm not saying to not be involved at all, I'm saying to take several steps away. The biggest thing that our "infuence" has gotten us in the last ten years that I see is 9/11 and endless war debt.
    Those are my feelings exactly.


    GA,
    Can you give me an example of how that relationship has been helpful to the U.S. in recent years.

    It seems Israel benefits far more from the relationship than we do.

  4. #199
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    I think we need to look at how influence works:

    Say we do as NewOldTech suggests... that is sit on the sidelines. Here is what will happen: Someone else will step in and pour $billions into the key places. Things like construction projects (dams, roads, water purificatin plants, elec generation plants), materials (steel, wire, aluminum, etc), infrastructure (water systems, elec systems, etc), telecommunications (phone systems, cell systems, internet, etc), etc. Now do you think it is in the best interest of the USA for our govt to NOT assist the co's based in the USA get those contracts? Remember, when US companies get those contracts, that is JOBS for US workers... and if Russia or China or India gets the contract... well the USA looses out. Is that a good idea?

    Now here is another issue: Whomever builds the telecommunications system, has snooping ability nobody else has. 007 stuff you say... well maybe... However there are a growing number of countries that will NOT LET China's big telecommunications co's build out their telecommunications structures because they are seriously worried of snooping.

    And lets not forget military: Whomever is the buddy of the country gets to sell them our second hand military hardware. The bulk of the Israel AirForce is F-16's... OLD technology by today's standards... yet lethal to anything short of a Mig-29. And when we sell our used hardware to Israel, we get $$$ to build new and better hardware for ourselves... which is again jobs as well as security.

    So it is not as simple as just sit on the sidelines. If we are not actively involved... we loose in many ways. THIS is what influence is... and it is the way the world works... Either I fill the vacuum at my expense... or someone else will be ready to take my place... and I will be the looser for not being early enough to get first dibbs.

    Now for GA's opinion: If we had gone into Iraq and Afgan with a determination to WIN... rather than to play games... we would have a lot more respect around the world. Nobody respects a passive person... they DO respect a STRONG person who is benevolent though.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

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    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

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  5. #200
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    I think we need to look at how influence works:

    Say we do as NewOldTech suggests... that is sit on the sidelines. Here is what will happen: Someone else will step in and pour $billions into the key places. Things like construction projects (dams, roads, water purificatin plants, elec generation plants), materials (steel, wire, aluminum, etc), infrastructure (water systems, elec systems, etc), telecommunications (phone systems, cell systems, internet, etc), etc. Now do you think it is in the best interest of the USA for our govt to NOT assist the co's based in the USA get those contracts? Remember, when US companies get those contracts, that is JOBS for US workers... and if Russia or China or India gets the contract... well the USA looses out. Is that a good idea?

    Now here is another issue: Whomever builds the telecommunications system, has snooping ability nobody else has. 007 stuff you say... well maybe... However there are a growing number of countries that will NOT LET China's big telecommunications co's build out their telecommunications structures because they are seriously worried of snooping.

    And lets not forget military: Whomever is the buddy of the country gets to sell them our second hand military hardware. The bulk of the Israel AirForce is F-16's... OLD technology by today's standards... yet lethal to anything short of a Mig-29. And when we sell our used hardware to Israel, we get $$$ to build new and better hardware for ourselves... which is again jobs as well as security.
    So it is not as simple as just sit on the sidelines. If we are not actively involved... we loose in many ways. THIS is what influence is... and it is the way the world works... Either I fill the vacuum at my expense... or someone else will be ready to take my place... and I will be the looser for not being early enough to get first dibbs.

    Now for GA's opinion: If we had gone into Iraq and Afgan with a determination to WIN... rather than to play games... we would have a lot more respect around the world. Nobody respects a passive person... they DO respect a STRONG person who is benevolent though.
    Your having wet dreams, show us were Israel has ever paid us for supplying military equipment..lol

    Or do you mean they pay us back with the same money we gave them.

    Roy
    "The perfect Totalitarian State is one where the political bosses, and their army of managers, control a population of slaves, who do not have to be coerced, because they love their servitude"

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by royc View Post
    Your having wet dreams, show us were Israel has ever paid us for supplying military equipment..lol

    Or do you mean they pay us back with the same money we gave them.

    Roy
    Regardless of little details... we have influence in the ME... if we did not, we would be a LOT WORSE OFF.

    Look at the big picture, let the little details go. Kinda like would one spend their entire time fixated on whether the bathroom had a 4" or 5" duct... when there was no load calc run on the entire house? Again: Look at the BIG picture.
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    Regardless of little details... we have influence in the ME... if we did not, we would be a LOT WORSE OFF.

    Look at the big picture, let the little details go. Kinda like would one spend their entire time fixated on whether the bathroom had a 4" or 5" duct... when there was no load calc run on the entire house? Again: Look at the BIG picture.
    You are speaking in very general terms. The only specific you stated was military contracts, but then somewhat agreed that there might be no monetary value to that.

    I’ll ask again. Please point out one specific benefit of being their ally.

  8. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    You are speaking in very general terms. The only specific you stated was military contracts, but then somewhat agreed that there might be no monetary value to that.

    I’ll ask again. Please point out one specific benefit of being their ally.
    See post #199.

    What I am trying to tell you is: It is like business influence... only on a GRAND scale. Do you understand what business influence is?
    GA-HVAC-Tech

    Quality work at a fair price with excellent customer service!

    Romans Ch's 5-6-7-8

    2 Chronicles 7:14

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by ga-hvac-tech View Post
    See post #199.

    What I am trying to tell you is: It is like business influence... only on a GRAND scale. Do you understand what business influence is?
    I understand that if you cannot give me one instance of the benefits of that “influence” then you are speaking in vague generalities and do not know how it applies to our relationship with Israel.

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian GC View Post
    I understand that if you cannot give me one instance of the benefits of that “influence” then you are speaking in vague generalities and do not know how it applies to our relationship with Israel.
    The USA relationship with Israel is very important. So is the USA relationship with many current nations of the now defunct Ottoman Empire. Much of the importance is based om the free flow of oil, much is based on containment of muslim hordes who would like to conquer the world.

    Israel is our best ally in the area. But we have others, like Egypt used to be.
    "You boys are really making this thing harder than it has to be". Me

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  11. #206
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    The question is why do we expend more than any other nation to meddle in the affairs of the ME? Very little of the oil imported into this country comes from the ME and if the current trend continues that number will only drop. The ME sells alot of oil to China among others, is it in our best interests to protect their source of energy? Wouldn't it be better for these other nations that rely on ME oil to step up to the plate?

  12. #207
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    I'll try to explain our support of Israel. I see two major reasons.

    1) Jews in America have been very successful and have an incredible amount of money. We all know the favorite thing of any politician is money. Ergo money is given to politicians who will support Israel. I dont blame the jews for this, I blame the pols.

    2) There are millions and millions of people(chrstians and jews) who view Israel as the wholly land. They would much rather see it in the hands of the jews than the muslims.

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by newoldtech View Post
    I'll try to explain our support of Israel. I see two major reasons.

    1) Jews in America have been very successful and have an incredible amount of money. We all know the favorite thing of any politician is money. Ergo money is given to politicians who will support Israel. I don’t blame the Jews for this, I blame the pols.

    2) There are millions and millions of people (Christians and Jews) who view Israel as the wholly land. They would much rather see it in the hands of the Jews than the Muslims.

    Now we are getting at the real reason we support Israel. I have always had doubts about it being for intelligence or influence. If it was for those reasons there should be many examples of how we have benefited in the past, but not one has been shown yet.

    If it to secure Middle East oil then why is that oil flowing to countries like China that do not support them like we do?

    I’ll reword the two explanations above:

    1) Jews in America own a big chunk of corporate America and therefore control our politicians. They force our politicians to give unquestionable support to Israel.

    2) Jews want that land for religious reasons. Christians want then to have that land because they believe Jews must occupy that land to bring about the second coming of Christ. Christians also believe Jews are "God's Chosen People".

    Both of those reasons will never be admitted openly to the American public. Since the Jews control our media it is easy for them to keep it from us. Politicians tell us they are an important ally, they give us intelligence and influence in the region. However, I believe we are being forced into fighting an endless religious war for them and Christians.

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