Continuing Issue loses Fron won't heat/cool

[kirk1701™]

Hey everyone, kind of a continuing issue for years and you all hit the nail on the head way back when so didn't want to continue the thread from here:

http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/showthread.php?615852-HELP!-AC-just-keeps-running&highlight=Bowling+Green

Anyhow, as you all recomended, changed repair guys and he found the freon leak; one leak.

Its still losing the charge, or not charged properly and when the charge is not correct it don't heat/cool as well. The repair guy was back mid-week and he put another charge on the unit and said must be more then one leak so he's coming back sometime this weekend to find the leak.

More then one, is more then one leak possible?

Second, it's a duel system and uses electric to heat most of the time unless the temp outside is below a set temp on the unit outside which is around 38 degree's then it kicks over and uses gas. When its using electric it don't heat as well, temps coming out of the vents are about 81 degree's on electric and 105 with gas??? Is this the way it should work or should it not be warmer with electric?

Thanks guys

[socotech]

First off yes, it is very likely you have multiple leaks. Second, if you have electric/gas heat your refrigerant leak will not effect heat mode. As for the 81 degree supply temp during electric mode, that sounds a little low. You may not have all heat strips working. Have you had a service man test them? 105 degree supply in gas mode sounds about right. Good luck.

[kirk1701™]

First off yes, it is very likely you have multiple leaks. Second, if you have electric/gas heat your refrigerant leak will not effect heat mode. As for the 81 degree supply temp during electric mode, that sounds a little low. You may not have all heat strips working. Have you had a service man test them? 105 degree supply in gas mode sounds about right. Good luck.

Yep, it effects heat mode
Not contradicting you don't get me wrong, I too thought Freon was for cooling, but when he gets the charge on the unit it heats fine?

Give it a week later and the heat slowly starts to get cooler till it just won't heat period.

[socotech]

Then you have a heat pump. Not just electric/ gas heat. Yes freon level matters.

[kirk1701™]

Then you have a heat pump. Not just electric/ gas heat. Yes freon level matters.

Correct

[socotech]

If it leaks down in a week, then the leak should be easy to locate.

[ASM401406]

This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

Additional infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[kirk1701™]

If it leaks down in a week, then the leak should be easy to locate.

The first leak was, at least for the new service man but the last service guy we'll see the other thread. Man he took us over the coals.

[thermojohn]

If it leaks down in a week, then the leak should be easy to locate.

My typical response to these types of long distance diagnosis like phone or internet... The leak is either in one, or a combination of three locations in your system: The indoor coil, the outdoor heat pump unit, or the inter-connecting copper refrigeration lines.

A good technician will be able to determine where the leak(s) is/are with proper diagnostics. The company who he represents also plays a role the quality and accuracy of your repair.

[kirk1701™]

My typical response to these types of long distance diagnosis like phone or internet... The leak is either in one, or a combination of three locations in your system: The indoor coil, the outdoor heat pump unit, or the inter-connecting copper refrigeration lines.

A good technician will be able to determine where the leak(s) is/are with proper diagnostics. The company who he represents also plays a role the quality and accuracy of your repair.

Ok here's a question.
We've done paid $$$ for fixing the first leak which was outside, inside the heat pump (Think thats what its called right? The box with the fan and the compressor?) and we thought that solved the problem.

So, again to fix this he's going to have to find where they are, drain the Freon like last time and replace. Should we be charged again?

[jpsmith1cm]

ASM401406

This is the Ask Our Pro's forum. In order to post a response here, you must have verified qualifications and have been approved by the AOP Committee. You may ask a question by starting a new thread.

You can find the rules for posting and qualifications here.

Additional infractions may result in loss of posting privileges.

[jpsmith1cm]

Kirk1701

Pricing isn't permitted here

[socotech]

Cannot discuss prices on here. If leak is inside, refrigerant should be able to pump down into outside unit. In other words, should not have to recover again.

[kirk1701™]

Cannot discuss prices on here. If leak is inside, refrigerant should be able to pump down into outside unit. In other words, should not have to recover again.

Ok, forget the price really thats not what I'm asking sorry for posting it anyhow

I'm asking "Should we be charged again"?

recover again?? What you mean?

[thermojohn]

Ok here's a question.
We've done paid XXXX for fixing the first leak which was outside, inside the heat pump (Think thats what its called right? The box with the fan and the compressor?) and we thought that solved the problem.

So, again to fix this he's going to have to find where they are, drain the Freon like last time and replace. Should we be charged again?

First, pricing is frowned upon here, so it'll be edited out by a moderator.

What you paid for the repair to include a trip charge, repair, and refrigerant (as expensive as it is) is not really out of line - even though it still is a lot of dough for today's consumer. The problem is that it didn't solve the problem. How long ago was the last repair?

Like I said earlier, a good tech, and the company behind him are your best advocates when it come to finding, and solving your system's problem. It is his job to protect your interests, as well as his company's.

We also get raked over the coals when our techs "fix" a unit, and the homeowner complains that the recent repair he paid for did not solve his problem, as the problem is still the "same".

Our company's policy on things like this is to send a seasoned tech to do a follow-up call at no diagnostic charge to determine the problem. If another leak is found, it will be dealt with as another repair that should have been determined on the first call, and the price to repair it will be given as it would have been repaired the first repair visit.

If the initial repair is still leaking, then that is a call-back, and it will be repaired at no charge, and plenty of apologies will be given for the inconvenience.

[thermojohn]

Haha... Looks like we have the pricing issue covered.

[kirk1701™]

And also, now that I think of it here's another question and keep in mind weve had this unit ohhhh 10 years now I think

If you turn the thermostat up more then 1 degree should it go into "AUX MODE"

And if in AUX MODE is it using gas or still electric no matter what the temp?

Reason I ask this is because the other night when the service man was here; he told me to turn it up so he could put a charge on it. I had the unit on emergency heat so it would use gas so when we took it out of emergency heat and just set on "heat" so it would work like normal, it was 73 in the house so I turned it up to 77 so it would stay on long enough while he worked and put a charge on the unit. Thats when it went into AUX mode and I'VE NEVER SEEN THAT BEFORE???

[kirk1701™]

First, pricing is frowned upon here, so it'll be edited out by a moderator.

What you paid for the repair to include a trip charge, repair, and refrigerant (as expensive as it is) is not really out of line - even though it still is a lot of dough for today's consumer. The problem is that it didn't solve the problem. How long ago was the last repair?

Like I said earlier, a good tech, and the company behind him are your best advocates when it come to finding, and solving your system's problem. It is his job to protect your interests, as well as his company's.

We also get raked over the coals when our techs "fix" a unit, and the homeowner complains that the recent repair he paid for did not solve his problem, as the problem is still the "same".

Our company's policy on things like this is to send a seasoned tech to do a follow-up call at no diagnostic charge to determine the problem. If another leak is found, it will be dealt with as another repair that should have been determined on the first call, and the price to repair it will be given as it would have been repaired the first repair visit.

If the initial repair is still leaking, then that is a call-back, and it will be repaired at no charge, and plenty of apologies will be given for the inconvenience.

June/July, Wasn't cooling, freon added, leak discovered, came back another day to repair.
Worked great, 58 degree Air on A/C, turned off/on while it was 100 degrees outside but slowly got where it didn't cool as well and stayed on constantly from 11 AM til about 5 or 6 PM but kept the house cool

October cold spell, wasn't heating - Added freon

Two weeks later - Needed charge which was the end of the month

This week, needed charge again and said must be another leak so will be back to find.

[thermojohn]

June/July, Wasn't cooling, freon added, leak discovered, came back another day to repair.

October cold spell, wasn't heating - Added freon

Two weeks later - Needed charge which was the end of the month

This week, needed charge and said must be another leak so will be back to find.

Well that explains it. The first call in October showing signs of low charge after leak repair in July should have sent red flags. We would have dealt with the issue then. Three times of gas n go is just a waste of everybody's time, and expensive refrigerant. Everyone in the trade knows these leaks just don't magically go away. They knew they'd be back again on another low charge.

Did you pay for these trips and refrigerant?

You said your system is 10 years old... Probably not in warranty unless a higher end system. They usually had 1 to 5 years basic parts warranty in those days.

Unfortunately, outside of warranty, they become money pits. Your leak needs to be determined, and overall system performace and condition needs to be evaluated before you plan to sink more money into something no longer in warranty (if that is the case). If not, it won't be long before there is another failure in your system, and you will feel raked over the coals again, if you have not been included in a long term cost analysis and a plan to eliminate surprise and unplanned expensive repairs.

Three gas-n-goes does not seem to be a good judgement of a reputable outfit... Unless there were other factors involved that allowed that to happen. Reputable companies and reputable clients do seem to go hand in hand.

[kirk1701™]

Well that explains it. The first call in October showing signs of low charge after leak repair in July should have sent red flags. We would have dealt with the issue then. Three times of gas n go is just a waste of everybody's time, and expensive refrigerant. Everyone in the trade knows these leaks just don't magically go away. They knew they'd be back again on another low charge.

Did you pay for these trips and refrigerant?

You said your system is 10 years old... Probably not in warranty unless a higher end system. They usually had 1 to 5 years basic parts warranty in those days.

Unfortunately, outside of warranty, they become money pits. Your leak needs to be determined, and overall system performace and condition needs to be evaluated before you plan to sink more money into something no longer in warranty (if that is the case). If not, it won't be long before there is another failure in your system, and you will feel raked over the coals again, if you have not been included in a long term cost analysis and a plan to eliminate surprise and unplanned expensive repairs.

Three gas-n-goes does not seem to be a good judgement of a reputable outfit... Unless there were other factors involved.
that allowed that to happen. Reputable companies and reputable clients do seem to go hand in hand

Yes, its a neighbor, starting to wonder if this was bad judgement on our part.

No, no charge on the gas-n-go as he's doing it after hours but he's partners in the business with another guy "I think".

Yes, High end system but out of warranty after 5 years.