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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    I ran this post in Residential HVAC and got only one answer which said to post it here. Thank you.

    What type metal tubing should I hear a contractor recommend to me when he visits on Thursday, May 26? Stainless? Corrugated Stainless? or Copper? There must be advantages and disadvantages to each.

    This forum was a great help to me two years ago when I replaced the A/C and natural gas furnace in my house. Now, I am getting a gas fireplace insert to replace the wood burning insert that I have used every year since 1982 in a masonry fireplace. The house is a two story with split foyer.

    For a 70 to 90 foot run, a couple insert sales people have suggested that I might have to get Washington Gas here to convert to split meter. That lets us us a small diameter line for 2 psi.

    A problem is that the fireplace is in the opposite corner of the house from the gas meter and utility room. I hope to see the gas line go from the utility room, under the foyer, up through a second floor closet into the attic, and then over to the far corner, to come down the outside of the fireplace wall. Should the tubing run through conduit anywhere along the way?

    By the way those same salesmen are suggesting going around the outside of the house. Ugly??

    I've just read through parts of the International Gas Fuel Code. I suspect that iron pipe would be harder to install than tubing, can't use aluminum outdoors, and can't use plastic indoors.

    Thank you.
    Al

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,078
    CSST (gastite or something similar) is definatly the easiest to work with and it can go just about anywhere except be buried underground. the yellow jacket protects it from damage. Have to be careful there is nothing sharp rubbing on it and be careful when installing it as to not puncture it, it can be fished into joist space, drop cealings, attics, etc... pretty easily.

    CSST might be more costly that other methods though, I dont actually have to buy any of the stuff, I just put it in so I dont know the costs.

    I know you have brick, and copper is a bad idea on brick. Dont know how much brick you will be running along though. If none, copper might be the cheapest way, esp if you go with the 2psi.

    I'm refreshing on the sizing charts for gastite to see what you could do without having to go to the split meter. (I assume you dont want to).

    -----

    Ok I remeber how to do it now

    Do you know what pressure meter you have right now? Should be something like 7WC for example. Also the run going to the fireplace, where is that going to come off? Right by the meter? or the end of an existing run with other appliances on it? The best way would be to run it off separatly from other appliances, this way it wont cause other appliances to loose too much pressure. I know the FB-Grand pulls 40k BTU. and for natural that unit need a minimum of 5WC to operate correctly..... soooo.... I just need to know what meter you have. If its 6WC or better (which it should be) you should be able to run 1/2" gastite to the fireplace off your existing meter.

    [Edited by jtp10181 on 05-25-2005 at 10:41 PM]

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Originally posted by jtp10181

    Do you know what pressure meter you have right now? Should be something like 7WC for example. Also the run going to the fireplace, where is that going to come off? Right by the meter? or the end of an existing run with other appliances on it? The best way would be to run it off separatly from other appliances, this way it wont cause other appliances to loose too much pressure. I know the FB-Grand pulls 40k BTU. and for natural that unit need a minimum of 5WC to operate correctly..... soooo.... I just need to know what meter you have. If its 6WC or better (which it should be) you should be able to run 1/2" gastite to the fireplace off your existing meter.

    jtp, thanks for the CSST info for the indoors run.

    The contractor visits this afternoon, so I'll know then if he wants to run from the meter or from the main pipe near the furnace.

    The gas company charges a fee for the split meter, so that's a tradeoff with labor.

    I can't tell how the meter label translates to "WC," but the meter is only a couple years old and was changed in by Washington Gas with a dial for remote reading. The label says: American Meter Company with two boxes that say:

    AC-250
    250 C.F.H. @ 1/2" DIFF.

    and

    MAOP 5PSI
    ANSI-CLASS 250

    The regulator before the meter is Sprague REGULATOR DIV, Model B32. There is a little metal tab bolted on that has the number "7."

    The lines in an out of the meter are 1 5/16" OD to my eye (maybe 1"ID?) and the black iron branch lines to the furnace and the hot water heater are both 13/16" OD (maybe 1/2"ID?).

    The shortest route, about 70 feet would be indoors 20 feet through the utility room and under the foyer, then underground the rest of the way. This looks like iron pipe inside and maybe plastic line inside of black polyethylene water pipe, underground.

    Thanks for the help.
    Al

  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,078
    5 PSI is about 140WC... so I assume the requlator with the 7 on it is a 7WC regulator. With that you could allow for a 2wc drop in pressure over the run. You could go up to 150ft with 1/2" gastite and still be able to pull 45,000 BTU. This is if thats the only appliance on the 100 ft run. Even if you tap off the main branch, if its before any other applicances, from the fireplace to the meter could be up to 150ft.

    Same goes with if you go off the end of the run, the total run from the meter to the fireplace could be up to 150ft and you could run 1/2" gastite from the connection point out to the fireplace. The only problem with that, you would have to recalculate for the other appliances to make sure thier runs would still be large enough considering the extra BTU load form the fireplace.

    I would think the calculations would be the same for black pipe or w/e you end up using. But I did figure this using the gastite sizing charts from thier webpage. It really doesn't seem like you would need a split meter unless for some reason 1/2" is too big of a pipe to run where ever you want to put it. With a 2psi system you could easily go 150ft with 3/8" pipe then regulate it down to 7WC right bfore the fireplace.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Thanks for all the helpful info, jtp.

    The job estimater came by this afternoon. He very much favors the split meter, although the gas company now has a new, variable price structure which he does not yet understand instead of the old flat rate pricing. So after he checks with them we'll know more how to assess the labor and materials costs between the low pressure and the high pressure approaches. I do not have those prices yet, but the low pressure labor and materials would be quite a bit more.

    After adjusting for the run of the main pipe from the meter and the BTU ratings of the furnace and water heater, he came up with 3/8 inch copper for high pressure, 5/8 inch copper for low pressure, and 3/4 inch CSST for low pressure. This came off tables in his bag. And if we have to go with low pressure for the insert, he would replace the existing branch line for the furnace with one size larger.

    As for going underground part way, he said it is no longer permitted to go from inside the house to the outside underground.

    Al

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    S.E. Pa
    Posts
    6,228

    sizing

    I recommend CSST over copper or black iron. I also think you should strongly consider a 12.2 wci or 2 psi system for 70 ft. I don't give a damn what some mfrs. charts say, You're gonna come up short using 1/2" at 70 ft. Those charts were developed under lab conditions--not in vitro. A cold gas line flows less than a warm one. If this line is outdoors, that could become a factor. If nothing else the pipe may whistle. Since the cost difference btw sizes is minimal, why not go larger? When sizing, don't forget if you use the Longest Run method, you still have to acct. for the whole house BTU load up to the point where this line taps in. If he's got a smaller house, that 250 CFH meter may handle it. If he has multiple furnaces, a 76K water heater, commercial cook top, etc. he could come up short.
    Once installed, the Fp should get a commissioning startup checkup complete with inlet pressure readings static, burning, and under full load. Also, manometers read pressure--not flow.
    Just my 3 cents worth...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    hearthman, thank you for your comments. I'm taking notes on the commissioning startup.

    The dealer gave me the gas line labor and materials costs today. The low pressure option is more expensive than the high pressure line. So we'll go with the low pressure, 2 psi, unless the gas company goes bonkers with their charge for split meter.

    The line will be indoors except for 10 feet at the far end into the side of the firebox.

    By the way, furnace 100K, water heater 40K, and insert 40K. So looks like power to spare.

    Al


  8. #8

    Dont forget bonding

    If you are connecting to a fireplace, don’t forget to properly BOND the CSST to and adequate ground source.

    The attached links are only a few samples as to WHY.


    Regards,

    Ed Carey


    http://www.omegaflex.com/trac/newsup...e_Brochure.pdf

    http://www.ci.carmel.in.us/services/...letter_2_3.PDF



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Posts
    39
    Can you use CSST outside as long as you don't have any contact with the ground? Can you purchase CSST at Home Depot or Lowes? Is it hard to put fittings on the pipe? THanks

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    Northern Virginia, Fairfax County
    Posts
    641
    Originally posted by Bmuelle
    Can you use CSST outside as long as you don't have any contact with the ground? Can you purchase CSST at Home Depot or Lowes? Is it hard to put fittings on the pipe? THanks
    I think Ed Carey was talking about an electrical ground that is required at the appliance end by the National Fuel Gas Code for CSST. This is because of experience with lightning strikes. You can run CSST outside in open air. My installer's supervisor here in Fairfax County, Virginia, told me that they were not allowed to run anything from inside the house to the outside underground. Strange, since the gas line comes into the house from underground.

    I have never seen CSST at HD or Lowes. I think you would have to find it at a distributor. The fittings work a bit like regular fittings for copper tubing, but you have to be careful to select the correct hardware. I had my installation done with copper tubing. With copper, the electrical ground provided by the appliance cord to the gas insert and blower is adequate. But the installers said CSST is easier to work with. They like it.

    Regular, licensed plumbers can deal with CSST, but they require special training to be sure to do it right. I think anybody who wants to do it on their own had better do their research. First off, you have to know what size to use which can depend on distance from the meter and pressure.
    Al

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Madison, WI
    Posts
    1,078
    GasTite (www.gastite.com) offers a certification for their product and what it consists of is basically going over the design and implementation guide (available as a PDF) and some hands on with the fittings. The only thing with the CSST is you have to make sure you make a really clean cut because burrs can cause leaks. You also have to know how to put the fittings on correctly. Other than that the only downside is the bright yellow jacket (which can be painted).

    Also the line sizing and design is explained in detail in thier guides.

    GasTite is all we use when we have to run gas lines to inserts or log sets. Beats carrying around a ton of black pipe and a pipe threader.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by alinnova View Post
    I think Ed Carey was talking about an electrical ground that is required at the appliance end by the National Fuel Gas Code for CSST. This is because of experience with lightning strikes. You can run CSST outside in open air. My installer's supervisor here in Fairfax County, Virginia, told me that they were not allowed to run anything from inside the house to the outside underground. Strange, since the gas line comes into the house from underground.

    I have never seen CSST at HD or Lowes. I think you would have to find it at a distributor. The fittings work a bit like regular fittings for copper tubing, but you have to be careful to select the correct hardware. I had my installation done with copper tubing. With copper, the electrical ground provided by the appliance cord to the gas insert and blower is adequate. But the installers said CSST is easier to work with. They like it.

    Regular, licensed plumbers can deal with CSST, but they require special training to be sure to do it right. I think anybody who wants to do it on their own had better do their research. First off, you have to know what size to use which can depend on distance from the meter and pressure.
    Al

    CSST is now available at Lowe's. Don't know about HD. You can also purchase CSST from Amazon, which is a cheaper option.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    In a boiler room
    Posts
    7,158
    Quote Originally Posted by edog355 View Post
    CSST is now available at Lowe's. Don't know about HD. You can also purchase CSST from Amazon, which is a cheaper option.
    A 7 year old thread came back from the grave!!!

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