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  1. #14
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
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    26
    Thanks again for all of your comments. I am getting extremely educated on this subject and I appreciate it.

    In response to Ryan, yes, there are constraints for the air handler in the width direction, not height. This may be the reason why the Carrier proposal came back w/ that particular air handler.

    And also, for the TAM4, I was quote for the XB series, not XR. So no variable there though I think I'd like to have a variable speed air handler.

    Thanks for the EDD comments, will take note.

  2. #15
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,188
    why not get bids for american standard?
    (trane's 'sister' company)

    you might also consiter that the 13 SEER is minimum efficiency allowed.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  3. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    DC Metro Area (MD)
    Posts
    3,371
    Quote Originally Posted by jcnycarch View Post
    Thanks again for all of your comments. I am getting extremely educated on this subject and I appreciate it.

    In response to Ryan, yes, there are constraints for the air handler in the width direction, not height. This may be the reason why the Carrier proposal came back w/ that particular air handler.

    And also, for the TAM4, I was quote for the XB series, not XR. So no variable there though I think I'd like to have a variable speed air handler.

    Thanks for the EDD comments, will take note.
    It looks like they quoted you the TAM4 air handler in both your XB13 and XR15 quote. For the XR15, to get the better efficiency ratings that you pay for, you'll need to pair it with the GAM5 (high efficiency motor) or TAM7 (variable speed motor). The TAM4A0A30S21SB in your initial quotes is 17-1/2" wide, and the FV4CNF002 is 17-5/8" wide. I'm not sure of how much space you have to work with, but here are some possible matchups (with XR15 model 4TWR5030G1000A outdoor unit) and their respective widths:

    TAM7A0B30H21SB (21-5/16" wide): 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 9 HSPF
    TAM7A0C36H31SB (23-1/2" wide): 13 EER, 16 SEER, 9 HSPF

    GAM5A0B30M21SA (21-1/4" wide): 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 8.5 HSPF

    For comparison, here are the Carrier ratings for the 25HCC530 with FV4CNF002: 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 8.5 HSPF.

  4. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post
    why not get bids for american standard?
    (trane's 'sister' company)

    you might also consiter that the 13 SEER is minimum efficiency allowed.

    best of luck.
    Have a company that installs American Standard coming tomorrow. I am eager to see what that holds.

    I know SEER 13 is the lowest, which is why I was shocked at how expensive (in my opinion), the Trane quote was for the basic SEER. I'd like to be at 15 considering my budget.

    Will report back. Thanks.

  5. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by RyanHughes View Post
    It looks like they quoted you the TAM4 air handler in both your XB13 and XR15 quote. For the XR15, to get the better efficiency ratings that you pay for, you'll need to pair it with the GAM5 (high efficiency motor) or TAM7 (variable speed motor). The TAM4A0A30S21SB in your initial quotes is 17-1/2" wide, and the FV4CNF002 is 17-5/8" wide. I'm not sure of how much space you have to work with, but here are some possible matchups (with XR15 model 4TWR5030G1000A outdoor unit) and their respective widths:

    TAM7A0B30H21SB (21-5/16" wide): 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 9 HSPF
    TAM7A0C36H31SB (23-1/2" wide): 13 EER, 16 SEER, 9 HSPF

    GAM5A0B30M21SA (21-1/4" wide): 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 8.5 HSPF

    For comparison, here are the Carrier ratings for the 25HCC530 with FV4CNF002: 12.5 EER, 15 SEER, 8.5 HSPF.
    Thanks for the Trane info, will look into it.

    The Carrier numbers are exactly what I am looking for and it fits within the budget.

    Will see what a couple of others come in as and will report back.

    Again, appreciate all of the help.

  6. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,295
    Quote Originally Posted by jcnycarch View Post

    I am new here and getting ready to replace our 20+year heat pump unit and am currently receiving proposals. I live in Northern VA (suburb of DC).

    ... since we plan to be in our house for a good 8 to 10 more years.

    for the same price of a SEER 13 Trane, I can get a SEER 15 Carrier.

    My question is...is Trane that much better?
    My question is ... Have you included American Standard and Bryant in your price compari$on$?
    These brands are essentially Trane and Carrier.

    http://www.americanstandardair.com/P...HP03;HP04;HP05

    http://www.bryant.com/products/heatp...mparison.shtml
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  7. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,295
    Station: Camp Springs / Andrews Air Force Base, MD, US (76.87W,38.81N)
    Station ID: KADW

    Month starting HDD _______________ CDD
    11/1/2011 ___ 440 … 11.9% ______ 6 …. 0.4%
    12/1/2011 ___ 674 … 18.3% ______ 0 …. 0.0%
    1/1/2012 ___ 806 … 21.8% ______ 0 …. 0.0%
    2/1/2012 ___ 678 … 18.4% ______ 0 …. 0.0%
    3/1/2012 ___ 363 … 9.8% ______ 31 …. 2.0%
    4/1/2012 ___ 314 … 8.5% ______ 40 …. 2.5%
    5/1/2012 _____ 56 … 1.5% ______ 161 …. 10.2%
    6/1/2012 _____ 30 … 0.8% ______ 278 …. 17.7%
    7/1/2012 _____ 0 … 0.0% ______ 486 …. 30.9%
    8/1/2012 _____ 1 … 0.0% ______ 351 …. 22.3%
    9/1/2012 _____ 71 … 1.9% ______ 175 …. 11.1%
    10/1/2012 ___ 256 … 6.9% ______ 45 …. 2.9%

    ____________ 3,689 ___________ 1,573

    Energy Costs
    Heating might be ~ 450 therms per year at 92% efficiency
    at $1.20/ therm N.Gas $540
    Heat pump at average COP of 3.0 /HSPF of ~ 10 and $0.14 /kW = $ 580/ yr
    with HSPF of 9 annual heating would be ~ $ 650.

    Cooling Cost = Ball park
    1,000 operating hours * $ 0.14 / kw * 2.65 kw/ 2.5 tons = $370/ year

    14 SEER should be ~1.05+ kw/ ton
    Operating hours might 111 days [nearly 4 months] for 9 hours a day if thermostat is set > 75'F
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  8. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    My question is ... Have you included American Standard and Bryant in your price compari$on$?
    These brands are essentially Trane and Carrier.

    http://www.americanstandardair.com/P...HP03;HP04;HP05

    http://www.bryant.com/products/heatp...mparison.shtml
    I will be getting an American Standard proposal today. The person was just here and interestingly, he said that the price for equipment is the same as Trane. Any differences are mark ups and labor charges. So this is different from what my research was telling me, that AS is slightly more competitive than Trane.

    I'm also getting a Rheem comparable proposal as well.

    Will follow up soon.

  9. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    SW FL
    Posts
    6,295
    Quote Originally Posted by jcnycarch View Post
    I will be getting an American Standard proposal today. The person was just here and interestingly, he said that the price for equipment is the same as Trane. Any differences are mark ups and labor charges. So this is different from what my research was telling me, that AS is slightly more competitive than Trane.

    I'm also getting a Rheem comparable proposal as well..
    EVERY mechanical contractor has a different pricing structure due to how well they treat their employees and equip them.
    Many expenses, too many to list, ...
    ... workmen's compensation is one some don't think of, but, I believe it's about 20% of hourly wage for HVAC tradesmen.
    ... vacation, training, holidays, truck/gas, tools, warehouse personnel,

    I'll hire the family firm that been in business for > 30 years.

    If you're shopping 'cheap' you will very likely get it will rheem.
    Just hope you don't feel like you got a cheap heap after 3 years.
    Designer Dan
    It's Not Rocket Science, But It is SCIENCE with "Some Art". ___ ___ K EEP I T S IMPLE & S INCERE

    Define the Building Envelope and Perform a Detailed Load Calc: It's ALL About Windows and Make-up Air Requirements. Know Your Equipment Capabilities

  10. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by dan sw fl View Post
    EVERY mechanical contractor has a different pricing structure due to how well they treat their employees and equip them.
    Many expenses, too many to list, ...
    ... workmen's compensation is one some don't think of, but, I believe it's about 20% of hourly wage for HVAC tradesmen.
    ... vacation, training, holidays, truck/gas, tools, warehouse personnel,

    I'll hire the family firm that been in business for > 30 years.

    If you're shopping 'cheap' you will very likely get it will rheem.
    Just hope you don't feel like you got a cheap heap after 3 years.
    Thanks for the advice on Rheem. It came in at a decent price but not as "cheap" as you think. I'm guessing Northern VA is a bit more expensive all around.

    I'm in the process of doing a spreadsheet with all of the proposals (still waiting on 1 more). In the meantime, I have a question about Lennox. #'s from the Lennox dealer are coming in pretty strong. Without regard to specific model types, what is the forum's opinion about the product? I've researched some negative comments regarding Lennox. Does this still hold true today? What's their main issue? Reliability?

    Thanks in advance.

  11. #24
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    south louisiana
    Posts
    3,188
    lennox...bryant. same as trane ...american standard.

    strange that american standard bid is same as trane.
    quite a bit of difference in price here in La.

    most 'name' brands have lesser cost brand.
    get bids for both as you shop.

    I'm not crazy about rheem/ruud. but I've seen some
    rheem/rudd units that lasted a long long time.

    for me..it is more about the install than the brand.
    name brand equipment & bad install
    is worse than lesser 'name' equipment and good install.

    I'm sure we have some Lennox folks here. I havent heard bad
    things about the brand here.

    best of luck.
    The cure of the part should not be attempted without the cure of the whole. ~Plato

  12. #25
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by energy_rater_La View Post

    strange that american standard bid is same as trane.
    quite a bit of difference in price here in La.

    most 'name' brands have lesser cost brand.
    get bids for both as you shop.
    Strike my initial remark. After further analysis, the American Standard did come in lower. It was marginal in the lower units (XB13 vs Silver SI 13) but very noticeable when comparing the XR15 vs Gold SI 15.

    Thanks.

  13. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    The South
    Posts
    2,197
    jcny

    Post mdl numbers of AS condenser and air handler quoted.

    The Heritage 15 is quality HP condenser and very comparable to Trane's XR15 model.

    IMO

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